Whether a Dark Future veteran could recommend Blood Red States?

[Solaris Wave]

I have spent quite some time wondering how to review this game and whether to give it a thumbs up or thumbs down. Born in 1975, I grew up through the 1980s and was always into the idea of cars with weapons and armour. There were cartoon shows, TV shows and movies about secret vehicles, I loved James Bond's Lotus Espirit and Aston Martin cars, there was a film called Condorman, there were toys like Transformers where guns might be attached to the car form of a particular robot. If I was playing with metal toy cars I often imagined they had retractable weapons. Spy Hunter was one of my favourite games in the arcades and I loved the steering column with the buttons for all the weapons. I bought a Car Wars adventure game book back in '85 and played/read through that many times. I still own that book and I regret not buying the others in the series as they will probably never be in print again.

Naturally, when I found about the Dark Future tabletop game a few years later, I had to play it.

I thought it was amazing. The look of the game, the in-depth rules, the artwork and background detail. I loved the look of the Interceptor and Renegade, as well as the sheer variety of car customisation, weapons and add-ons. You could see its inspirations from Mad Max, Car Wars and even the original RoboCop movie (they both came out around the same time). There was something about that high-tech dystopian setting where corporations, media sensationalism, greed, divisions between the rich and poor, and lawlessness were going into overdrive.

Even though I don't get a chance to play it now, I still have the original Dark Future rulebook as well as the expansions, White Line Fever and Dead Man's Curve. They feel important to me to keep. I was disappointed when Games Workshop seemingly forgot about it. Therefore, when I saw that Blood Red States was being developed I was immediately looking forward to it.

I want to recommend it because it is a game about car combat and there are never enough (plus I was really disappointed with the Autoduel game back in the day, even if I still have the advert for it, that I took out of a games magazine). What is there in Blood Red States is good. However, it could have been so much more. Even if I was happy with the content that is there, the lack of balance in some of the missions and the skyrocketing difficulty due to the time limit, abundance of gang vehicles with sophisticated weapons (e.g. lasers) and rising fuel costs, bring the game to an abrupt halt where you simply can't continue, no matter what.

Personally, I would have loved to have simply seen a conversion of the table top game with all the rules and options in place. If there was one drawback about the original game, the freedom of choice and calculations needed for each action slowed the game down as you worked out the results of each action. That couldn't really be avoided without losing abilities and that freedom of choice. If the computer was calculating it all for you, it would speed up play.

There really was/is so much in the tabletop version. Speed Factor, ramming and sideswiping, drift manoeuvres, Bootlegger turns and U-turns are some of the moves you can make. Different vehicles rules including bikes and trikes. There are different engine types (V6, V8, V12), Nitrous Oxide, rocket boosters, drag chutes, carbon steel and carbon plastic armour, ejector seats, spike droppers, oil slicks, smokescreens, pattern mines, turrets and cupolas, turret and missile computers, 20mm and 40mm grenade launchers, missile launchers with a variety of missile types, chainguns, miniguns, machine guns, lasers...(breathe)...and that was just for the vehicles.

With the expansions your character would gain fame, sponsorship, psychosis, injuries, cybernetic enhancements and hacking software. Sanctioned Ops would be independent, be part of an agency or turn renegade. You could create gangs for your outlaws. Missions would have variety and there would be things like contracts, convoy raids, bounties and salvage.

Seeing as all of that was seemingly left behind by Games Workshop to concentrate on Warhammer Fantasy Battle and Warhammer 40K, I thought they would be open to having a full game conversion to keep such a rich game world as Dark Future alive (it seems a crime to create such a fully rounded game and setting and then just confine it to history). That would have been an immediate premium price purchase for me. I was disappointed to see so much of that left out of Blood Red States and what remains is simplified.

I am also disappointed to see that the look of the Interceptor was changed for some reason. There is no weapon hardpoint on the hood (in fact the car has no hood at all now, only front left and right wings), no side mounts (again, just the front wings), no rear facing guns and only one passive mount. You can't buy a weapon and mount it where you want as you now have a turret version and "front" version and weight is handled in such a way that instead of it affecting acceleration, top speed and handling, it just works fine until you reach a cap and then can do nothing more until you can afford a new engine level.

I also really don't like the huge looking weapons compared to the originals and the fact that the Interceptor now has vulnerable and pointless side fins. Also, with those huge looking guns sticking out so far on the new car design, they would get damaged as soon as you rammed into anything.

And yet, there are still great things about Blood Red States! The humour in the e-mails are great and capture the setting just nicely (and I recognise some of it being from the rulebooks' stories and fake ads), the artwork and backgrounds are good and overall, as I previously mentioned, you can never have enough car combat games as there are only so many. This one especially does raise awareness of the Dark Future setting.

If there ever was a game in the future that was a full conversion or had more in-depth detail, character careers and no forced game end, it would definitely be something I would happily pay for!

[DEFIANCE is Back !!]

I was just about to ask - does this game allow for repeating of missions (or campaigns) so you can 'grind' for extra money, xp, skills etc,?

or is it one of those games that 'force' you to progress even though you don't want to,

and usually to the detriment of the player as enemies outlevel them and make it overly difficult for players.

Obviously you practically answered that already but because I was really intent on getting the game (amazing visuals and looking forward to 'fun' relaxing grinding sessions, if that's possible..),

I wanted to double-check and see if it's going to be what I hoped for.


Thanks

[Solaris Wave]

Yes, you can repeat missions as much as you like (for the most part, which I will get to later). Each mission has a difficulty rating but some missions are harder to do than others (hacking missions are very tricky to do) and some gangs are harder to fight. In this version of Dark Future, renegade Ops will form gangs, rather than go it alone, and all are kitted out with lasers. I found the Rogue Ops, as they are known here, the most dangerous due to the number you face and the fact that the lasers in this game are really nasty with few drawbacks. In the original game, Combat Lasers and Heavy Lasers were accurate, effective, didn't need ammo (as long as the power plant was still going) but couldn't fire as often in a Game Turn as a ballistic weapon could.

Now for the caveat to repeating missions. The game will get to a point where you are forced to take on riskier missions that award more money. As time goes on, the price of fuel goes up. Eventually it gets to a situation where you can't afford to keep on playing with that character unless you take on those missions and more importantly, succeed in doing so. If you fail a mission you get nothing other than a bill to repair your wrecked car. There are no bonuses for destroying enemies other than the objectives.

You can't simply keep on doing the easier missions indefinitely as they no longer cover the cost of repairs, rearming and refuelling. You have to scale up.

Most missions can throw a vast and sometimes unlimited number of enemies at you in waves of around 2-4 cars at a time. You do get breathing space but only if you destroy the current enemies on the road before the next lot join the battle. Therefore, it isn't really like the original game where an Op or Agency will be tasked at taking out a gang that has been causing trouble and the gang might consist of a few cars and bikes that once they are eliminated, stay that way. You don't really have a career for your character in the same way the tabletop game allowed you to do (especially with the Dead Man's Curve expansion).

Because of the fuel increase, you effectively get priced out of the game for that character. If you took on the riskier missions and succeeded you might unlock perks and upgrades for future characters and cars before having to start anew. I may be wrong on this because I never got that far. I kept doing easy missions so I could get more money to improve my car, thereby allowing me to progress to harder missions. However, it is just you on the road (and maybe a VIP you are protecting) facing lots and lots of enemies. The harder the mission, the less likely you are to complete the objective which gives you the cash to continue. Meanwhile, the price of fuel gradually goes up regardless of whether you have been winning or losing.

Like my original post covered, Blood Red States is a tricky game to recommend or not recommend. It is so different from the varied, complex and rich world of Dark Future. And yet, it is the only way most people of today will know of its existence. Games Workshop abandoned it a few years after it came out, maybe because it was too complex, maybe because they took it as far as they envisioned, or maybe because they wanted to focus on the two Warhammer universes. The best way to describe Blood Red States is as an "impression" of Dark Future. So limited and narrow but the only thing available. I believe I have seen the original rule book and expansions scanned on a web site or two in the past, as people still play it here and there. If you can find them and have a look through them, you can see just how deep the original tabletop game was, compared to Blood Red States.

I certainly thank the developers for making this game but damn it man, I want the full steak dinner, not a photograph of one.

[DEFIANCE is Back !!]

I really appreciate you taking the time to explain the game,

unfortunately the 'triad' of burning up graphics cards (wasn't fog something that used to make game graphics run _easier_ not harder in the past?),

crashes on completing missions (that's almost as bad as losing saves),

and forced 'difficulty' increase / scaling like you mentioned makes it a hesitant pass..

I really wanted to get the game (graphic design is amazing, and would've loved to 'build up' my guy and run missions over and over for relaxing gaming),

what happened here reminds me completely of a game I really hoped for as well, called 'Blackguard Arena' (or Blackthorn?), a game where you run a gladiator house and fight gladiators in a low fantasy setting,

it sounded like the perfect recipe, but when you play it it 'forces' level scaled enemies on you - along with timed (forced) events.

Because it's all timed and doesn't let you 'sand-box' anything, you're forced into events you can't win (unless you 'game' the game by picking only the best skills, gladiators, etc),

and ultimately get frustrated and wonder how games could be designed so badly (when so many people are -crying- for 'sand-box' type modes in games like that / this )..

Really don't know what devs are thinking nowadays,

do their play-testers really not do their job? Or is it some planned obsolescence thing?


Very aggravating to see games with such potential get shafted with inane game design choices..

[DEFIANCE is Back !!]

By the way (to devs),

nothing should be stopping you guys from simply adding a 'sand-box' mode,

where you get to run campaigns / missions you 'choose' (out of a possible '3' levels at any given time - higher, same, or lower than your own),

and freezing the cost of gas to allow for unlimited play without 'penalty' for a person.

Considering the guy opening this thread really likes the game and talked positive about it, with the main 'problem' being the scaling cost of gas,

why not do him, and everyone else that wants to play the game like a 'sand-box',

the favor of adding a mode like that, and letting people enjoy the game how they want.

In fact I'm going to do a thread about this to see how people respond,

cool thanks

[Auroch Digital]

Originally posted by Celendrin:

By the way (to devs),

nothing should be stopping you guys from simply adding a 'sand-box' mode,

where you get to run campaigns / missions you 'choose' (out of a possible '3' levels at any given time - higher, same, or lower than your own),

and freezing the cost of gas to allow for unlimited play without 'penalty' for a person.

Considering the guy opening this thread really likes the game and talked positive about it, with the main 'problem' being the scaling cost of gas,

why not do him, and everyone else that wants to play the game like a 'sand-box',

the favor of adding a mode like that, and letting people enjoy the game how they want.

In fact I'm going to do a thread about this to see how people respond,

cool thanks

OK, thanks for the good ideas - duly noted!

[kaptainai]

OP you summed it all up in one necessarily, lengthy, but concise, discussion.....I still have the original table-top game and was so looking forward to this game coming out that I bought it on early access only to be disappointed not to see any vehicle variations, limitations in customisation and no proper storyline/campaign.

Such a waste of potential, and I doubt we will ever see a decent conversion for Dark Future, or Car Wars for that matter, and it will be down to me to have to stick to those table-toppers to create my own immersive stories.

It's a shame as I doubt it will get updated to make it a more interesting story-driven game.

[DEFIANCE is Back !!]

We're pretty close to armaggedon brush up on your mechanic skills and you'll be living the game in 'real life' soon enough,

lol..

[kaptainai]

Originally posted by Celendrin:

We're pretty close to armaggedon brush up on your mechanic skills and you'll be living the game in 'real life' soon enough,

lol..

I used to work on my own cars in the past but these days I open the bonnet, check the oil and water and ponder on what everything else is before closing it again! lol

[Kapt.Kool]

what is REALLY missing in this game is persons on top of vehicles!!!
In MAD MAX movies you see gangmembers (Warboys) fighting on top of trucks or on the loading platform of pickups, throwing spears and molotovs or shooting guns.

and THIS should be represented in the game as well - its also in the original of Blood Red States! Just look at the manual for the tabletop version of the game.

depending of the size of your car you can take some passengers with you helping you fight, and you can hire them in a station between the missions....