Surrounded units routing through my lines

[dustoff]

I have surrounded some units and they route through my line instead of being destroyed.

Is this WAD , as in assuming they can find gaos in 10k hexes. Hmm, come to think of it they are taking most of their vehicle and guns too; which doesn't seem right???

What do I need to do to ensure surrender or destruction?

[Vuyek]

WAD.

You need to wait a turn or two for them the units to become isolated i.e. in red border.

Then once you attack them they will surrender.

The Garymeister in his infinite wisdom decided that due to historical reasons lots of Soviet units can break through an encirclement and not die just lose a lot of men and equipment...

Which is 100% true historically but it irks you when you have a unit completely surrounded and it routes a loooong way away from you.

Those routed units - try to not "touch" them with your units but surround them, once they become 100% THEN surround them and wait a turn.

WAD.... kinda....

[jabgamer]

It must be isolated through a full turn in order to get them to surrender without routing. It's an abstraction that forces you to close a pocket and keep it closed (due to IGOUGO system).

[Dr Duh]

according to what I read in the manual I thought it said surrender was only guaranteed if a unit forced to retreat had no option to retreat to other than a hex within an enemy ZOC.

[Vuyek]

@DrDuh:

Originally posted by jabgamer:

It must be isolated through a full turn in order to get them to surrender without routing. It's an abstraction that forces you to close a pocket and keep it closed (due to IGOUGO system).

[Dr Duh]

Originally posted by timorekusa:

@DrDuh:

Originally posted by jabgamer:

It must be isolated through a full turn in order to get them to surrender without routing. It's an abstraction that forces you to close a pocket and keep it closed (due to IGOUGO system).

What's your point? I've had plenty of units isolated in a large pocket, that even after a full turn of isolation, they retreat repeatedly through multiple attacks without surrendering. This is because their retreat(s) did not turn into routs. They may even hold. However, isolated units that are retreated (and not otherwise routed or shattered) that are (closely) surrounded by enemy ZOC in every adjacent hex to which they could otherwise retreat - are subjected to a die roll that can force their surrender instead (see 15.9.1.1). Otherwise, only routed results are automatically turned into surrender results when a combat unit is isolated (15.12).

So the point is you have a better chance of forcing isolated combat units to surrender by making sure they have no hex to retreat to that isn't in an enemy ZOC when you attack. If you merely squeeze the outside of a large pocket, you'll see more of them absorbing multiple attacks and just retreating around inside the pocket before they finally succumb. I don't see how your quote addresses that point.

[jabgamer]

I think it's only guaranteed if the unit is isolated and has no hex to retreat to. However, isolated units that are forced to retreat into a ZOC have a much higher chance of surrender. At least that's how I recall it working. So yes, you want to get the units isolated (which means they were isolated in their previous turn and are still isolated), and then force them to retreat into ZOCs.

[dustoff]

Thanks Guys. All very helpful !!

I guess it makes some sense. I can rastionalised that it would take some time for units to secure 10k hexes to cover all the routes.

So does it just has to be a zone of control? As in I don't need to have units physically around each enemy unit or large pocket?

[jabgamer]

You need to have controlled hexes that prevent the enemy units from tracing to a supply source (railhead). That will isolate the enemy units. Since the enemy can only retreat into their friendly controlled hexes, if possible, you want them to have to retreat to a hex that is physically adjacent to one of your units. When you do this, the chance of the isolated unit surrendering goes way up. Think of it as putting pressure on the enemy. Of course even better is to control every hex next to the enemy isolated stack since this will leave them with nowhere to retreat to and they will surrender. However, that can take time (MPs) from your units, and that time can be better spent making the next pocket or catching up to the main line. Often, especially early on, it's not needed. Just make the enemy isolated units retreat next to a friendly unit and they will surrender. Figuring out just how to balance these conflicting options is a key to playing the Germans in the early part of the war.

[Athos]

Originally posted by Corporal C:

Thanks Guys. All very helpful !!

I guess it makes some sense. I can rastionalised that it would take some time for units to secure 10k hexes to cover all the routes.

So does it just has to be a zone of control? As in I don't need to have units physically around each enemy unit or large pocket?

If you turn on the "show enemy hexes" filter, it will show you hexes you control. That's helpful to know where you stand with isolation I've found.

[heliodorus04]

A unit is only isolated after its supply phases, which occur in the start of the turn. IF you surround a unit completely, and on the same turn attack it, it will route; the route rules enable the routing unit to 'jump' to a nearby city/town hex out of enemy ZOC. However, a route will not necessarily move a unit to a supplied hex. Good play can enable you to force routes into hopeless places that remain isolated. Play around with Axis Turn 1 in Army group North area, and you can see how the way you force enemy units to route can in turn bag you a lot more prisoners. It is PRISONERS that win the game for the Axis side. Capture, capture, capture.

Otherwise, when you cut off an enemy unit from supply, just leave it alone until your next turn. Isolated units retreat easier and surrender rather than route (they are incapbale of route). As an example, in the Army Group South area, I will let the Lvov pocket die over 7 or 8 turns, using only Romanian units.

[omgsuperman]

Here's an interesting read on the game mechanic and real life:

http://www.wargamespace.com/2014/05/05/the-rout-report/

Enjoy!

[dustoff]

Originally posted by heliodorus04:

A unit is only isolated after its supply phases, which occur in the start of the turn. IF you surround a unit completely, and on the same turn attack it, it will route; the route rules enable the routing unit to 'jump' to a nearby city/town hex out of enemy ZOC. However, a route will not necessarily move a unit to a supplied hex. Good play can enable you to force routes into hopeless places that remain isolated. Play around with Axis Turn 1 in Army group North area, and you can see how the way you force enemy units to route can in turn bag you a lot more prisoners. It is PRISONERS that win the game for the Axis side. Capture, capture, capture.

Otherwise, when you cut off an enemy unit from supply, just leave it alone until your next turn. Isolated units retreat easier and surrender rather than route (they are incapbale of route). As an example, in the Army Group South area, I will let the Lvov pocket die over 7 or 8 turns, using only Romanian units.

Again all very helpful reolies, thank you all. Really, this was the one thing that bugged me on my first try of teh game.

By half way through my first (Lenningrad) Scenario, I could say I enjoy the mechanics inclusing this.

I QUOTE the above because creating a space for them to route to out of their supply, to b bagged latter is a great advanced tip, and something to really look at as I get more advanced and play on bigger scenarios and campaign.

Overall, having so much fun with it I will writ my first steam review after clocking some more hours. (Any passers by who've not bought yet- if you like a thinking wargame this seems one of the best).