Burst Fire

[jackelton]

So Burst Fire can hit a max of 3 targets right? Please correct me if I am wrong. There is the picture that shows three red boxes; one in the middle, one to the right, and one on top. How do I interpret this picture? I used to think that if they are directly to the left or right or above or below the target they would also be hit by Burst Fire. In my experience whether that takes place or not is erratic. Am I interpreting the picture wrong? What determines who else is hit by Burst Fire other than the target? I would like to know. Thanks.

[mal]

^I second this request
Based on my personal experience, the other boxes have a CHANCE of being hit and as skill level improves (more points in burst fire, full auto, etc.), so do the chances of the other boxes being hit.
Having said that, I admit I am guessing and would like a solid answer from a dev in case I've missed something.

[jackelton]

I too have wondered if there was a chance element at play. If there is, it certainly hasn't been explained from what I can see.

[jackelton]

Well, whether intentional or not it is definitely random. I used Burst Fire on one dude and he was the only one hit. I used it a second time on the same guy and his neighbor was hit as well...interesting.

[mal]

I know that at maxed rank it's very reliable, because my engineer's turrets have maxed rank skills due to his engineering score. they basically always hit the neighbors.
I don't think I have past rank 4 of that skill on a soldier... though deadly burst with the neptune is pretty reliable for this at rank 9 too. It's basically their version of that talent.

[jackelton]

Interesting. Well, if it is based on the skill of the unit or talent in some way I certainly have no qualms with that, just didn't understand why it was erratic.

[Trese Brothers]

When an AoE attack is made, first the valid targets are selected. Easiest to think about this for grenades, where you just have the 9-box design. Any adjacent square containing an enemy -- those enemies are added to the valid targets list.

Then, every valid target has an attack and defense roll made. So, an enemy can be a valid target and still get missed. This is what causes Burst Fire to look "erratic" -- you're hitting and missing.

The template indication clearly needs improvement. An angle is calculated from the shooter and the target, and then any enemies within an arc of that angle are considered valid. It would probably be better to use a graphic that doesn't involve squares, since it isn't being calculated in squares. It is on our todo list to add a small underlay to the screen when you fire so that it would actually show the valid AoE area every time you fired BF, so you'd know who is in our or out. Potentially, that valid target area would show up if you hovered with BF selected.

[mal]

let me see if I got this:
I fire at a skitterling and he happens to be next to a spitter, who happens to be in the right position.
My dice pool of 8S + 17 will be rolled seperately, at full value, against both the skitterling and the spitter.
The spitter has I think 5S+5 defense, the skitterling has 3S+3.
I'm missing the shot against the spitter well over 75% of the time.
I can't recall the last time I missed the skitterling.

If it works as I understand your explanation... wouldn't there be an attack registered against that spitter in my combat log?

My example uses a high level neptune with deadly burst 1. when I do get a log entry against the secondary target, it's generally a hit. The other thing is I don't get the visual feedback of a miss either, where the enemy slips back for a moment.

When that same neptune used Suppression fire 8 and missed a guy, I saw him dodge back and got an entry in my log. Based off your explanation... we need to bug report this. :(

[Trese Brothers]

@mal - based on your explanation, I suspect that the Spitter is not considered a valid target. Otherwise, an attack would register in the Combat Log. But its hard to tell without a screenshot. Any chance for that? This is where an underlay of the valid AoE squares would be very helpful. Bumped that on my priority list.

[mal]

I don't take a lot of screenshots. next time it happens though, I will definitely screencap it.
with the log up and the mouse over where I fired my weapon.

[mal]

Don't mind the look, it's egg on my face.
That being said, I found something of a .. bug?
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=964164465

The linked photo has a + drawn via paint on the target of hellstorm 5
it has a X drawn where enemies where hit.
The hydra who fired it is currently selected.

That's right, I believe I hit an enemy outside the expected template effect... the exact opposite of what I thought was happening.

I've been doing a testing run on easy difficulty, so far burst fire 1 is attacking extra enemies 100% of the time.

That all being said, tips for use of burst fire:
remember that for attacks shaped like a cone (burst fire, hellstorm, full auto, deadly burst) the "point" of the cone faces you. so if two guys are next to eachother, target the one slightly closer to you. try to get slightly to the side of him to ensure the cone is faced towards his buddies. (this is where I believe I've done it wrong in the past)

*edit once verified photo link working

[Trese Brothers]

Originally posted by mal:

That all being said, tips for use of burst fire:
remember that for attacks shaped like a cone (burst fire, hellstorm, full auto, deadly burst) the "point" of the cone faces you. so if two guys are next to eachother, target the one slightly closer to you. try to get slightly to the side of him to ensure the cone is faced towards his buddies. (this is where I believe I've done it wrong in the past)

That is exactly correct. It acts like a cone, and the cone expands away from the shooter. The template image in the game is clearly confusing, because it shows squares, which isn't really the case. It's using angles and distances, not calculating exact squares. So, in this case, due to the angle from which you fired, that far southern spot of flame is not unexpected. There are some bug-looking holes in the flame -- just spots between flaming tiles that were left empty. Is this immediately after it was fired?

[mal]

OP issue confirmed, first shot targeted both, second only targeted primary target.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=964414249

earlier that turn, my grenade attack roll tied the defense roll of the hunter who was later the primary target of burst fire. said enemy was not hit.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=964413498

Finally, if you miss against your primary target with any area based attack, no rolls are made against other targets. I only saw it once and didn't screenshot it because that's a known issue with area attacks. If you'd like I can screenshot it next time I miss, but it's literally been half a campaign since I missed a primary target with a gun.

[mal]

with regard to the flame post(hehe, couldn't help saying it), hellfire ONLY generates a fire tile on enemies hit. with the angle of the attack the far south was expected, but the northern X tile shouldn't have been hit. The other fire tiles where from the round prior's hellfire shots. I screenshotted immediately, hope this answers the confusion.

[Trese Brothers]

@mal -

thanks for all the posts.

1. you are right about Hellfire, my bad -- I thought were were talking about Napalm Charge for a minute. Lots of Talents to keep straight :)

2. On the issue with the "OP issue" I don't see what you're trying to point out in the screenshot. Burst Fire may hit one target and miss a second. When it comes to gunnery attacks like Burst Fire, if you don't hit the primary target, ALL other targets are ignored.

When it comes to grenade attacks, ALL targets are considered valid, regardless of whether or not you hit the primary target.

So, for BF, as you pointed out you want to shoot the enemies closer to you in the cone, but you'd also do best to pick the weaker enemies if they are properly positioned to be sure you hit and cause damage.

[mal]

1) lol, I understand how that goes. :)

2) read over my combat log in the screenshot. I did burst fire at the same target twice. the adjacent target wasn't fired at the second time despite me hitting and damaging primary target in the second shot. EXACTLY the issue that started this thread, screenshotted as requested.

3) Again, in the combat log, my grenade attack had 4, the defender had 4, and apparently that's a miss? It didn't put a miss in the combat log but I verified that enemy HP was unchanged. There is a line showing a hit but there are 2 attack rolls under it, one of which is the 4-4 tie that was effectively a miss. I don't believe the engine knew wtf to do there as it just piled it into the neighboring report? I'll keep an eye open for more tied rolls and see if I can spot any further anomolies in reporting.

Bonus?!) On the mission starport breach, if you swap in a hydra and change your mind, your swap is restricted to hydras. pretty sure that's a bug lol.

Btw if you ever want a beta tester.. keep me in mind, I notice all sorts of stupid stuff hehe. :)