Benefits of Jail

[joek0]

My last ranked game was pretty interesting and I learned some good things from the game. From the start of the game, I was sent to jail for the for a good amount of time. Since my income and card selection was crappy, I took the opportunity to make this game a learning experience by actually wanting to stay in jail to level up to "The Don" (the highest jail level). I heard that you can get points in jail by reaching the max jail level. I was actually able to get 1 score from jail before losing. Since I also got many scoring cards used at the Inferno, I was able to make a good comeback and get 2nd place which surprised me. I can see that being in jail can be a viable strategy if the right conditions permit.

What do others think of this strategy of staying in jail as the don to get score if you spend time in jail?

[Qfasa]

Originally posted by joek0:

What do others think of this strategy of staying in jail as the don to get score if you spend time in jail?

It can help, and in a long match having the Don status might be very helpful but that's it - only helpful. It can't win a game on its own and it shouldn't.

As the main strategy it doesn't work. Shouldn't work by design. We had a pretty big conversation with developers about it during the period of early access. At the end, by design Jail is punishment, not a way to the victory.

[Red Dragon]

I agree, you shouldn't be able to win just by trying to stay in jail as long as you can, that would be boring and bad gameplay. However during games where I stayed in jail with bad behavior I felt it should be more beneficial than it is right now - HOWEVER in a way that encourages you to eventually get out again at an opportune moment. Maybe get an active card from reaching jail level 3 that gives you a 50% chance of paying a bribe (similar to the other active card that already does this).

Or you are simply paying -1 (or even -2 bribe) for every jail level. This would lessen another problem at the same time, which is that acessing the astral plain location is stupid expensive. You have to pay at least 7x your bribe (6 fields and thus at least one stop where you gotta pay double + a red skull afterwards). Ironcially this is the place, where you need to go in order to lower your malice - but the more malice you have the less you can possibly afford to go there, making it a completely underutilized location in all the MP games I've seen so far (for everyone who isn't governor or wants to dump a game-ending card).

Recently I had an unbelievable game where I actually ended up with 0 income and something absurd like 46 bribe due to extreme malice and a serious bad luck string. The bribes due to accumulating malice were just killing me and I couldn't seem to recover at all. But if you end up in jail and level up, mechanics like I described above could act as a valid strategy to counter the downward spiral of no income and high bribes without lowering your malice. It even makes sense - bribing some violent jail kingpin too much isn't something all thugs might be comfortable with after all ;)

[Qfasa]

Originally posted by Red Dragon:

This would lessen another problem at the same time, which is that acessing the astral plain location is stupid expensive. You have to pay at least 7x your bribe (6 fields and thus at least one stop where you gotta pay double + a red skull).

No one goes in Astral through the bribes unless they have literally thousands of gold. Use 'teleports' cards or become Governor THEN go in Astral.

And Astral is very popular location among best players, it just should be used in a different way than other locations. Don't go there just because you have a card. Go there when you're ready.

As for the malice... people are often saying that A Lucky Potion is a bad and useless card. But in fact it's one of the cards that can help you to control your malice, for free.

Honestly, I don't think Jail needs any serious changes of how it works. Maybe just a few balance changes for particular events.

[Dabiz]

I've got a question that fits this thread quite well.

Is there any benefit in using 'NEUTRAL'?
Unless I'm missing something 'NEUTRAL' just means you let the game randomly choose for you whether you'll behave GOOD or BAD.
I do use it rarely when I can't make up my mind in time. But to be fair, I don't really see the point to use NEUTRAL, ever. Wich makes it quite pointless to be there at all.

[Red Dragon]

Originally posted by Qfasa:

Honestly, I don't think Jail needs any serious changes of how it works. Maybe just a few balance changes for particular events.

As I understand it, leveling up in jail gives you access to better jail events and nothing apart from that. But if you realistically can't possibly win a game by squatting in prison, then it seems the conclusion is that you should try to get out asap pretty much all the time - unless higher jail levels actually give you something that is useful outside of jail as well. Then it becomes a more interesting decision about identifying right moment to leave instead. (Though one might argue gaining resources is already enough).

[Red Dragon]

Originally posted by Dabiz:

I do use it rarely when I can't make up my mind in time. But to be fair, I don't really see the point to use NEUTRAL, ever.

Neutral has the highest chance to randomly get an instant pardon compared to the others. Check the help section in-game about prison.

[Dabiz]

Originally posted by Red Dragon:

Originally posted by Dabiz:

I do use it rarely when I can't make up my mind in time. But to be fair, I don't really see the point to use NEUTRAL, ever.

Neutral has the highest chance to randomly get an instant pardon compared to the others. Check the help section in-game about prison.

OMG is this true? 350+ games, and only now I find out? LOL

[Qfasa]

Originally posted by Dabiz:

OMG is this true? 350+ games, and only now I find out? LOL

Yes, it's true. It literally gives you additional chance to draw Amnesty event.

Originally posted by Red Dragon:

As I understand it, leveling up in jail gives you access to better jail events and nothing apart from that. But if you realistically can't possibly win a game by squatting in prison, then it seems the conclusion is that you should try to get out asap pretty much all the time - unless higher jail levels actually give you something that is useful outside of jail as well. Then it becomes a more interesting decision about identifying right moment to leave instead.

Most of the time it's better to leave Jail as fast as possible but at higher levels you have benefits for being IN Jail, because then you can send misfortunes to other players or take their money.

So you make decision not about when to leave Jail but instead you should decide as soon as possible if you need Jail experience at all or not and act accordingly there.

[Dabiz]

Originally posted by Qfasa:

Originally posted by Dabiz:

OMG is this true? 350+ games, and only now I find out? LOL

Yes, it's true. It literally gives you additional chance to draw Amnesty event.

I feel silly for not knowing this after all these games, haha. Thx for clearing that up guys, much appreciated!

[Red Dragon]

Originally posted by Qfasa:

Most of the time it's better to leave Jail as fast as possible but at higher levels you have benefits for being IN Jail, because then you can send misfortunes to other players or take their money.

So you make decision not about when to leave Jail but instead you should decide as soon as possible if you need Jail experience at all or not and act accordingly there.

...but based on which factors does an experienced player decide to select "bad"? If in general it is better to get out asap, then during your first and second time visiting the jail the optimal play is probably to go neutral or good in order to leave, so where does your jail experience come from, unless you just happen to be imprisoned a lot?

[Qfasa]

Originally posted by Red Dragon:

...but based on which factors does an experienced player decide to select "bad"? If in general it is better to get out asap, then during your first and second time visiting the jail the optimal play is probably to go neutral or good in order to leave, so where does your jail experience come from, unless you just happen to be imprisoned a lot?

My choice always based on how long I expect the match to be. If I expect 60+ rounds match I don't care much if I'm arrested, and will always choose bad behavior to get Jail exp as fast as possible in attempt to have Don near the end of the match.

Otherwise I just look for what is best for me in a particular situation and from which side of Jail I want to get out.

But then again, I'm not the best player :) Just good, I think.

[Dr. John Snow]

Originally posted by Red Dragon:

...but based on which factors does an experienced player decide to select "bad"?

when you have a Dump card you can play, choosing "bad" gives you a chance to escape through the Dump and play it. same if you have, say, Fast & Fair, so Dump > Marketplace > wherever you want to go.

[Red Dragon]

Originally posted by Qfasa:

Originally posted by Red Dragon:

...but based on which factors does an experienced player decide to select "bad"? If in general it is better to get out asap, then during your first and second time visiting the jail the optimal play is probably to go neutral or good in order to leave, so where does your jail experience come from, unless you just happen to be imprisoned a lot?

My choice always based on how long I expect the match to be. If I expect 60+ rounds match I don't care much if I'm arrested, and will always choose bad behavior to get Jail exp as fast as possible in attempt to have Don near the end of the match.

Otherwise I just look for what is best for me in a particular situation and from which side of Jail I want to get out.

But then again, I'm not the best player :) Just good, I think.

Is there some comprehensive info on a wiki or in a forum or whatever that details exactly how the event probabilites evolve with the jail level?

[Dabiz]

Originally posted by Red Dragon:

Originally posted by Qfasa:

Most of the time it's better to leave Jail as fast as possible but at higher levels you have benefits for being IN Jail, because then you can send misfortunes to other players or take their money.

So you make decision not about when to leave Jail but instead you should decide as soon as possible if you need Jail experience at all or not and act accordingly there.

...but based on which factors does an experienced player decide to select "bad"? If in general it is better to get out asap, then during your first and second time visiting the jail the optimal play is probably to go neutral or good in order to leave, so where does your jail experience come from, unless you just happen to be imprisoned a lot?

Getting out at dump can be a huge benefit, depending on your hand. Often enough worth all the risk of staying in a few turns longer.

Also there are some more specific BAD events that can be worth choosing BAD over the other two.

[Qfasa]

Originally posted by Red Dragon:

Is there some comprehensive info on a wiki or in a forum or whatever that details exactly how the event probabilites evolve with the jail level?

At some point it will be in the game but right now you can use this link: http://gremlinsinc.com/forum/forum/27-jail-mechanics-rules-suggestions-discussion/ It's official forum of the game.