Fundamental Design Flaws

[Nosferatuno]

I genuinely like this game overall, it feels like it's reaching for greatness but falling a few steps short. There's a few specific issues that I feel could use some attention, and hope that may be addressed in future patches.

The biggest issue I've seen playing this is the pacing. It takes quite some time to get through all 100 days. I'm not sure at this point how many times you can error and still make it to the final stages. Currently it feels like if you hit a certain point you should just reset and give it another go. It's as if you're grasping at the impossible very swiftly after a bout of bad attempts. An option for a faster paced time scale would be a huge improvement. Perhaps 20-40 days, boost the #s of the income, and the difficulty pacing, and it would likely resolve this problem.

The second issue which correlates with this is how the end of the game is handled. If you don't make it to the swindle, from what I've experienced you just lose. I feel that if you run out of time, you should be given a shot at the swindle. I'm not sure how impossible this is if you're undergeared, but if it's possible at all even with a crap loadout, it may help improve that feeling of impossibility on a bad playthrough. A sliver of hope for the hopeless really may help keeping players such as myself going.

Last issue is that certain quick time events have no downside for failing. I assume this is a bug, if not, make them have a repercussion of some sort!

This is primarily written for the developers in the hope of them seeing it. I'm more than open to debate the primary points I've made here. However, please don't bother responding if it's just "get gud" as it may just improve my day far more than you'd hope for.

[danthat]

Quite a lot of this sort of theorising came up during the Beta, and I scrambled to change it based on kind of early feedback. Fix it I did, in the way you're suggesting, and it completely broke the game.And we went back to how it is now The prices, the time limit all that stuff has been extensively tested by a variety of beta testers, and it really now is in the sweet spot.

A pop at the final swindle when you're out of days is a nice idea, I'll look into it.

There are two types of hack - bad sectors and secure nodes. Failing a secure node will cause you issues (mines explode, for example). Bad sectors are there for design reasons - hacking a computer underneath a camera was boring because after a time you knew 100% you had time to hack by just holding the button until the camera swept back round. With bad sectors, it increases the tension. Failing those bad sectors, however, was just unfairly punitive, it wasn't fun.

Hope that answers your questsions :)

[Nosferatuno]

Originally posted by danthat:

Quite a lot of this sort of theorising came up during the Beta, and I scrambled to change it based on kind of early feedback. Fix it I did, in the way you're suggesting, and it completely broke the game.And we went back to how it is now The prices, the time limit all that stuff has been extensively tested by a variety of beta testers, and it really now is in the sweet spot.

I understand the balancing of this is probably hellish. I still feel it would end up making a better game if it were possible to have accomplished it. Given time constraints and such, I understand hitting that sweet spot with a different approach can be a near impossibility given certain constraints (needing to eat etc)

Originally posted by danthat:

A pop at the final swindle when you're out of days is a nice idea, I'll look into it.

Would feel a bit more whole in my opinion, hopefully it works out!

Originally posted by danthat:

There are two types of hack - bad sectors and secure nodes. Failing a secure node will cause you issues (mines explode, for example). Bad sectors are there for design reasons - hacking a computer underneath a camera was boring because after a time you knew 100% you had time to hack by just holding the button until the camera swept back round. With bad sectors, it increases the tension. Failing those bad sectors, however, was just unfairly punitive, it wasn't fun.

Working as intended on this point is fine by me, still feels just a bit off at times when there is NOTHING going on around it XD.

[danthat]

Yes, restarting is fun. You'll know exactly what to do. You'll have learned things, and you'll be able to play your way through better.

Is it equally awful going back to Mines 1-1 in Spelunky?

[danthat]

Oh okay. You're not enjoying the game. That's absolutely fine, it's not going to be to everyone's tastes.

The difficulty ramps up in order to make those second/ third playthroughs remain a challenge - precisely so those opening missions aren't a walkthrough easy slog. They're still their own little puzzles.

[Brazenscull]

Originally posted by danthat:

Oh okay. You're not enjoying the game. That's absolutely fine, it's not going to be to everyone's tastes.

The difficulty ramps up in order to make those second/ third playthroughs remain a challenge - precisely so those opening missions aren't a walkthrough easy slog. They're still their own little puzzles.

I love that you're paying such cloe attention to the forums Dan, and given what an elaborate game you've created, I appreciate the time you've taken to balancing.

However, many of the issues I'm experiencing are due to lack of polish. If a set of spikes is only one 'block' below you, yet the ceiling is only above you, it's nigh on impossible to jump over them. Similarly, there are too many instances of ending up somewhere that you can't get out of. I know this is by design, but the best roguelikes are programmed to avoid these instances or, at least, provide means to check above and below (like in Spelunky, where it wasn't an unlockable perk). There's a lot of collision issues (I've fallen unharmed onto spikes and had my attacks clip through enemies), whilst wall jumping up to an enemy is unwieldy and almost always lands you into their field of vision.

You've made an excellent game, Dan, really. But it needs some touching up. I appreciate how busy your life has been recently (and congratulations on your new arrival!) but I hope you continue to support and improve The Swindle - iron out the issues and you have an utterly remarkable game.

[Brazenscull]

Oh, and the issue with the door closing behind you after hacking a mine needs addressing quick-sharp, like!

[danthat]

I spent a lot of time taking out instances where you can get stuck, and it ruined the game. Kills tension. Part of what makes those opening sections so tense and fun is the knowledge that you have t obe really really careful. It's easy to assume it's the level gen, but getting 'stuck' is key to feeling underpowered and overwhelmed in those opening sections.

Spikes are a part of that. It's about shifting your preconceptions about video games. If you don't feel you can successfully jump over the spikes *don't do it*. Games these days molly coddle you, they're scared to let you fail. Each upgrade in The Swindle is designed to overcome challenges laid out by the procedural generation. Want to get over those tricky spikes? Grab the matching upgrade. Don't like bots on a single tile? There's an upgrade to deal with that. Every instance of "I can't do that" has a corresponding upgrade. And yes- the game puts those instances in front of you before you can handle them. Becasue the other way round makes *no sense* - again, thet's the sort of lead-by-the-hand spoonfeeding I'm deliberately avoiding in the game's design.

Taking stuff out just made the game more bland, less interesting, less of a challenge.

The game's getting great reviews, see Eurogamer's review, or Game Maker's Toolkit's anaylsis. And those in-depth looks at the game really get to the crux that nothing here hasn't been pored over endlessly this end and designed that way on purpose.

[Nosferatuno]

Originally posted by danthat:

Oh okay. You're not enjoying the game. That's absolutely fine, it's not going to be to everyone's tastes.

I'm confused if this is in regards to me or not? I'm actually enjoying the game quite a bit hence the critique.

[danthat]

Sorry, no. I wound up banning someone I decided was just trolling and it's deleted their post and leaving me looking WEIRD. Sorry about that ;)

[Dustreaper]

Grab the matching upgrade. Don't like bots on a single tile? There's an upgrade to deal with that. Every instance of "I can't do that" has a corresponding upgrade. oke but those are like 20000 the cheapest is the pc hack after that it takes a while to get the next one and i keep getting level's that are just impossible on my 5th heist so i get what i can and get out. But then i kinda waste a day and it keeps happening so i think i won't be able to complete the game i ntime. now at day 30 got 2 upgrades 1 pc hacking and more pc money and i'm broke. any advice?

[danthat]

Yes, walk away! If you can't handle a situation yet, leave it alone. Ignore your inner greed. If you don't die, you come away with cash for upgrades. It's not necessarily about having the skill to take on an area as it is having the skill to know when to leave :)

[stevo]

While I think having a fully randomized level that will have parts that aren't accesible at some stage until you gear up is a good idea, the decision to put this within the slums just seems daft to me. I mean, it's one thing to give you levels that are borderline insane to tackle without having a correlating upgrade, (and I agree giving the player the obstacles beforehand makes perfect sense) but to simply go into a level, realize it consists of one hallway with nothing in it, and everything is unreachable underground is basically getting screwed over by RNG and wasting a day. This happened to me on the 4th heist; a time where I think it's reasonable to assume you're just flat out unable to access anything like that.

[Fist]

Originally posted by danthat:

Want to get over those tricky spikes? Grab the matching upgrade.

While this is generally true, spikes just outside a 1 tile high entrance/exit don't really have a matching upgrade and it just feels kind of terrible trying to navigate around them.

Even maxed out on the last days I don't feel there's actually an elegant way around them at all and end up just desperately mashing the quad jump and hoping for the best or bombing, neither of which feels 'matched' to me.

[RIP Val Kilmer]

Originally posted by Fist:

Originally posted by danthat:

Want to get over those tricky spikes? Grab the matching upgrade.

While this is generally true, spikes just outside a 1 tile high entrance/exit don't really have a matching upgrade and it just feels kind of terrible trying to navigate around them.

Doesn't the double jump work perfectly cromulently in a situation like that?

[BlueFoxZero]

Currently there is no benefit to getting back to your ship alive, with or without cash. So if I understand correctly, if you are somewhere deep in the level, have almost no cash and get spotted, there's no real incentive to try and get back to your ship. You just die and start the next day.
Maybe it would be fun if you get a small bonus when you get back to your ship alive while the alarms are going off. I don't think it should be cash, cause otheriwse players just set off the alarm before returning to their ship and cash in. Maybe something that makes you more invested in the character you're currently playing?