So many bad arguments against it. . . but I love it?

[Sphinxter!]

The LGBT content is great, and most of my LGBT friends, and their friends, and friends friends all like, own, or have this game on their wish list. . . so I don't know what people are on about with "agenda shoving", or whatever?

One of the more absurd comments from years ago was about how fiction "must" be comparable to the time to be relatable in any way at least by 80%. . . and I wondered about 1984, or Animal Farm, or any of the ancient Greek or Norse Myths. . . and I just laughed, and laughed and laughed. Yeah, buddy, the stories have to be "relatable" to be good. Okay.

Anyways, I'm trans, I'm a vet, I'm a girl, and I don't feel like the game was agenda shoving whatsoever just cuz a side character you can totally ignore if you like happens to have some shared traits with people like me. What's so scary, or threatening about that? Seriously?

[admiral1018]

I'm a gamer who actively seeks out inclusivity in titles, and I really enjoy games that are told from diverse cultural and ethnic perspectives, as they give me new gaming experiences that defy the old boring tropes we've been getting for decades. I just finished my sixth run of Subnautica: Below Zero, which features a black female protagonist and her sister who is a black lesbian. That game is excellent, and I highly recommend it. With that said, the writing in this game is absolute trash. It might actually be the worst written modern game I've ever played.

It's not an issue that there is LGBT+ inclusion in this game. The issue is that every single NPC and the player-character are LGBT, and the characters are not developed or given any traits beyond their sexuality/gender identity. That isn't inclusivity to me, that's tokenism.

When the characters are not giving generic quest info, they're talking about their sexual preferences for no reason. And as a ham-fisted contrast, the only cis-gender hetereosexual white male in the game is the main villain. He's literally the only character who isn't given any redeeming traits despite the fact that the player-character's mother manipulated him into having sex under disingenuous pretenses. Even the evil lesbian queen is portrayed sympathetically and given a redemption arc. It's absolutely ridiculous and comes across like a Tumblr fanfic.

If you like this game just because it features characters who are queer/trans/bi/gay, that's your prerogative. But I expect more from a game than just superficial traits slapped onto NPCs before I'm going to praise it. I expect decent writing and actual characters with real personalities. This game failed horribly at that.

[Sphinxter!]

HAH! OMG.
The point, and your head.
Person, that's literally what it was like FOR US FOR DECADES.
Suck it THE ♥♥♥♥ UP.

[Sphinxter!]

Like you have 0 points, and almost every queer person I've ever seen online talking about this, or my friends who like it all love it. Only panderers to cis hets among the LGBT don't like it, and Cis Hets who are basically too sensitive. We had to live under the Hays Code, so don't be coming to MY thread to ♥♥♥♥♥ about being stuck with the villain role, crybaby.

[Sphinxter!]

"It's not an issue that there is LGBT+ inclusion in this game. The issue is that every single NPC and the player-character are LGBT, and the characters are not developed or given any traits beyond their sexuality/gender identity. That isn't inclusivity to me, that's tokenism."

Dood take ur cookie cutter 4chan arguments with you on the way out of the butthurt clown car you delivered this ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ from. There's some pretty well developed characters throughout the game from what I could tell just from the beginning. ALL of your complaints are stuff that cis het people have been doing in reverse for years, or just outright lies lmao.

[admiral1018]

There's no hate here. I would love to see a well done game with LGBT+ inclusion that didn't have absolutely garbage writing. This game isn't it.

Also. if you weren't prepared for even the mildest of disagreement, I'm not sure why you made this post here.

[Kartoffelsuppe]

I guess some people are seething over the fact that some people have a different worldview alien from theirs and that the game is more bluntly about it's world building.

[Timed Revolver]

Originally posted by admiral1018:

I'm a gamer who actively seeks out inclusivity in titles, and I really enjoy games that are told from diverse cultural and ethnic perspectives, as they give me new gaming experiences that defy the old boring tropes we've been getting for decades. I just finished my sixth run of Subnautica: Below Zero, which features a black female protagonist and her sister who is a black lesbian. That game is excellent, and I highly recommend it. With that said, the writing in this game is absolute trash. It might actually be the worst written modern game I've ever played.

It's not an issue that there is LGBT+ inclusion in this game. The issue is that every single NPC and the player-character are LGBT, and the characters are not developed or given any traits beyond their sexuality/gender identity. That isn't inclusivity to me, that's tokenism.

When the characters are not giving generic quest info, they're talking about their sexual preferences for no reason. And as a ham-fisted contrast, the only cis-gender hetereosexual white male in the game is the main villain. He's literally the only character who isn't given any redeeming traits despite the fact that the player-character's mother manipulated him into having sex under disingenuous pretenses. Even the evil lesbian queen is portrayed sympathetically and given a redemption arc. It's absolutely ridiculous and comes across like a Tumblr fanfic.

If you like this game just because it features characters who are queer/trans/bi/gay, that's your prerogative. But I expect more from a game than just superficial traits slapped onto NPCs before I'm going to praise it. I expect decent writing and actual characters with real personalities. This game failed horribly at that.

Wow, it's almost like you're mad that a hetero character is getting the treatment LGBT characters have been for the last...forever.

Not so great when the shoe's on the other foot huh? Welcome to how LGBTQ folk have been feeling for generations.

But instead of taking the opportunity to gain a bit of empathy, you decided to come and be a whiny ♥♥♥♥♥ on the internet.

How cosmically useless are you?

[admiral1018]

Please give me a list of video games where LGBT+ characters are the central villians and given no nuance or redeeming traits, in a game where every other character is straight. I'll wait.

Even beyond that terrible issue you raised, if your point is "we've been treated like crap for so long, you should be fine seeing a different group treated like crap," then you're not acting like a particularly empathetic or enlightened person. No group should be targeted or villianized because of their race, gender, or orientation. You don't fix past problems of bigotry by just being biased towards a different group now as though that "makes up for it" or something.

[Metzelmax]

There is a way to do representation wrong and Timespinner has found it.

If it was a game with cis het leads then it would be just a bunch of dudes talking about who they f***ed this weekend. That's not a character trait that becomes better if its exhibited by lgbt people.

As for the world building: It clashes very much that the lgbt people are all in the military of a fascist regime. At no point do they renounce their loyalty to Winderia and one of the side quests is even you just continue to killing lachiem soldiers even after the Queen surrendered to you. It all reeks too much of "We need more female drone pilots clap emoji!!" And let's not even talk about how there is a disease that makes all the Lachiems more violent as a whole species, which is too close to eugenics for my liking.

And on a very base level the time travel doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I mean you save the whole planet of winderia from destruction and all that changes in the future is that the boss door unlocks.

I admit that there are a lot of anti-sjws out there that hate on that game just because, but they do that with every game and it's not helpful to dismiss any critique as being just another one of those.

[Hotel Security]

Please give me a list of video games where LGBT+ characters are the central villians

Yes, but in the 70s/80s, gay folks were often portrayed as the killer in films as though they were all half-crazy and could snap at any time. A lot of protests went up over this stuff at the time. So the fact that you don't see many now stems from the uproars that stemmed from this. You do see some gay villains in movies but video games are far more careful on that type of subject since they're primarily for younger crowds and get judged by a stricter code.

Also video games handle these issues in a much more elementary manner as they do with most "adult" issues...I would not think that games are the best source to find actual nuance on this subject.

You don't fix past problems of bigotry by just being biased towards a different group now as though that "makes up for it" or something.

I don't see how this applies to Timespinner, frankly.

--

I don't mind these types of themes but Timespinner went a little overboard where they don't seem to have a single male/female relationship so every one pair come across feels like it's checking off some sort of LBGT checklist to make sure they're all there.

I don't think it got in the way of the game or narrative but I did find myself rolling my eyes at seeing yet another non-traditional couple. But, at the same time, I felt the developer wanted to portray a world where the male/female stigma doesn't exist and anything can date anything else.

[arsenicBumpnip]

Originally posted by Hotel Security:

You don't fix past problems of bigotry by just being biased towards a different group now as though that "makes up for it" or something.

I don't see how this applies to Timespinner, frankly.

I think admiral was referring to OP's ridiculous "haha ♥♥♥♥ you we had to deal with discrimination for years so you don't get to complain when it happens to you" response with that line, not the game itself.


Personally though, as someone who qualifies for multiple LGBT+ letters, I'm inclined to strongly agree with Metzelmax's opening point: I'd be pretty uncomfortable if a game had a long dialog of a bunch of cishet dudes blabbering about their sex lives, and that doesn't magically change just because the characters are LGBT, or even if they're the exact same flavor of LGBT as myself.
I'm just not interested in hearing about a bunch of strangers' sex lives -period-, with sole exception maybe going to the protagonist depending on the game (e.g. Mass Effect, romance VNs, or games like Gone Home where the entire plot hinges on gender/sexuality topics).

It also -really- didn't help that beyond the over-excessive campfire scene and the game insisting on revealing basically -everyone's- relationship status, we had to deal with ♥♥♥♥ like Seykis being a walking HR violation and the game just pretending that that's a totally normal way for someone to act. Like ffs, imagine if you got a job stocking shelves at a grocery store, and one of the first things your co-worker ever said to you was a joke about people offering to ♥♥♥♥ him. It's fragrantly inappropriate to the point of basically being sexual harrasment, and I'm absolutely boggled that tripe like that made it into the final script.

[Kartoffelsuppe]

Originally posted by Metzelmax:

As for the world building: It clashes very much that the lgbt people are all in the military of a fascist regime. At no point do they renounce their loyalty to Winderia and one of the side quests is even you just continue to killing lachiem soldiers even after the Queen surrendered to you. It all reeks too much of "We need more female drone pilots clap emoji!!" And let's not even talk about how there is a disease that makes all the Lachiems more violent as a whole species, which is too close to eugenics for my liking.

Maybe I'm missing something (skipped a lot of details when watching) but the central theme of the game seems to be Aristocracy and how both places that are in war with each other turn into Republics because the Aristocracies turned into Oligarchies (a corrupt Aristocracy)

It doesn't make a lot of sense to call it a Fascist regime since those kind of entities are antithetical to tradition and aristocratic principles.

https://imgur.com/a/L92cnIa

[arsenicBumpnip]

Originally posted by Kartoffelsuppe:

Originally posted by Metzelmax:

As for the world building: It clashes very much that the lgbt people are all in the military of a fascist regime. At no point do they renounce their loyalty to Winderia and one of the side quests is even you just continue to killing lachiem soldiers even after the Queen surrendered to you. It all reeks too much of "We need more female drone pilots clap emoji!!" And let's not even talk about how there is a disease that makes all the Lachiems more violent as a whole species, which is too close to eugenics for my liking.

Maybe I'm missing something (skipped a lot of details when watching) but the central theme of the game seems to be Aristocracy and how both places that are in war with each other turn into Republics because the Aristocracies turned into Oligarchies (a corrupt Aristocracy)

It doesn't make a lot of sense to call it a Fascist regime since those kind of entities are antithetical to tradition and aristocratic principles.

https://imgur.com/a/L92cnIa

You definitely missed a lot, considering that the V-something Empire was ruled over by a sole authoritarian tyrant who banished anyone who questioned his "we'll be a meritocracy where people who can use magic have more rights" policy to the Lachiem penal colony, where they'd be doomed to die of a wasting disease.

Meanwhile, the Lachiem's rebel kingdom was also ruled over by a sole queen, who was then replaced by her wife when she died, who then proceeded to snap from grief and summon a bunch of demons, who in the pre-time-shenanigans timeline blew up the entire V-planet, with Lachiem eventually being ruled by another corrupt, power-obsessed king in the present day.

The V-something Empire was an oppressive authoritarian dictatorship from the outset of the story, while the Lachiem -became- an oppressive authoritarian dictatorship as a result of "he who fights monsters must be careful to not become a monster etc etc".
Not sure if I'd call either empire Fascist, if only because it seems like every time I ask the word's definition has changed again and I can't be bothered to think into it that hard for a video game forum discussion, but they -definitely- weren't Aristocracies either, they were both Monarchial Dictatorships.

[admiral1018]

Both Vilete and Lachiem are authoritarian and oppressive, with Vilete having a more defined caste system where magic users are the aristocracy and everyone else is subservient. The emperor of Vilete is established from the get-go as being a tyrant, whereas Lachiem's militaristic and imperialistic tendencies are explained as being the result of both fighting for their independence and the "bleakness," which infected everyone who was outcast to Lachiem.

Honestly, the game doesn't really have a larger theme other than "violent and oppressive governments are bad." Any nuance that could have come from learning how the Lachiem became the civilization that Lunais hates in the future period is discarded. She never waivers from her near-psychopathic desire to kill Nuvius for revenge no matter how much knowledge of the past or new context she gains. And, of course, the game pushes the ironic message about how bad war and conflict are, only to have you end them via violence and murder.

[Kartoffelsuppe]

Originally posted by admiral1018:

Honestly, the game doesn't really have a larger theme other than "violent and oppressive governments are bad." Any nuance that could have come from learning how the Lachiem became the civilization that Lunais hates in the future period is discarded.

I skipped a lot of text when watching because it wasn't interesting. It reminded me of Pillars of Eternity where a priest you can recruit talks about a peasant laying down his harvesting sickle, becoming a god, ravaging the land and getting exploded with a bomb by said priest and his friends in the end. He endlessly drones on about his goddess too calling her a ♥♥♥♥♥.

I don't know why developers love to do this but reading walls of text just isn't interesting especially when it's a person who doesn't feel like a living entity in the world but a lore piece. You can create a lot of atmosphere and nuance with less words.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUSaDzuWN14
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06ZWsv3ELRY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tV33Ewf_hw
https://pathofexile.fandom.com/wiki/Ancient_Graffiti