Marvel's Midnight Suns

Marvel's Midnight Suns

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ZOMGILOST Dec 24, 2022 @ 11:37am
**Spolier Alert** I don't understand the ending
so, what was Lilith's plan all along? Couldn't she just worked with the heroes to achieve her goals?
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Showing 1-15 of 16 comments
Zebedee Dec 24, 2022 @ 11:58am 
The heroes were trying to stop the prophecy. Lilith wanted the prophecy to be fulfilled so that she could try to free Hunter from having a manifestation of Chthon inside him/her and then kill Chthon. Goes back to Caretaker not being fully truthful about why Hunter is wearing a collar (hinted at in journal entries before the 'reveal').
Overlord Byron Dec 24, 2022 @ 12:56pm 
It's unclear. Her GOAL is to finish the prophecy so that she can summon Chthon and kill him. Her plan for doing so, however, is a mystery, and sort of ties into a recurring problem where none of the characters know what it means to have a "plan."

In theory she wanted to complete the prophecy so that she could free Chthon, thereby giving her the opportunity to kill him with the God Killer. The lillin outside Red Skull's vault seem to indicate it was her intent to claim the weapon. She urges Hunter to grab it before Hunter's possession, and she echoes Caretaker's words (Only Chthon can kill Chthon) before stabbing the Darkhold, so she's aware of its properties. HOWEVER, she doesn't know that Hunter has the God Killer when they attack, as is clear when Hunter attacks her with it. Without foreknowledge of Hunter possessing Godkiller, there's no feasible way Lillith should have been able to kill Chthon. Her "plan" would have failed, and she ought to have known that.

Lilith is surprised when Hunter becomes a vessel for Chthon, so it's apparent that she didn't know what the collar was really for or what destroying it would do.
Hunter Wolf Dec 24, 2022 @ 4:29pm 
Originally posted by ZOMGILOST:
so, what was Lilith's plan all along? Couldn't she just worked with the heroes to achieve her goals?

Her plan in retrospect involves the following

Gain enough resources to fund her plans

Get the Darkhold completed

Cast a spell (that you interuppted) to do ????

Convince her child she's a well intentioned extremist

Kill Cthon which in theory would instantly cure her of being a demon big bad and she can atone for the rest of the stuff.
Cirative Dec 24, 2022 @ 9:10pm 
It was poorly written. The twist didn't need to happen, at all, if Lilith just told them the plan from the start. Literally all the events could've still happened, but no, they decided to pull a Destiny with the "I could tell you..."
Ulthar Dec 24, 2022 @ 10:11pm 
I think it was exceptionally written, especially compared to other Marvel Movies.

You do not seek to know the mind of a demon posessed Lillith - but sure "She could have just cooperated and revealed her plan all along" - but her and her minions are literally demons, so would Sara and the group have TRUSTED her if she asked them to join forces?

hint: no.
Zebedee Dec 24, 2022 @ 10:54pm 
I thought the 'surprise possession' was a bit dull, mainly because the Chthon line needed to spell out the agreement is the first time that part of the agreement is directly spoken about. There's room there to use Scarlet Witch, trained to be Hunter's replacement for *reasons*, to explore the idea of vessels, where powers are drawn from, and possession a bit more.
Hogs Fattman Dec 25, 2022 @ 6:35am 
Originally posted by Ulthar:
I think it was exceptionally written, especially compared to other Marvel Movies.

You do not seek to know the mind of a demon posessed Lillith - but sure "She could have just cooperated and revealed her plan all along" - but her and her minions are literally demons, so would Sara and the group have TRUSTED her if she asked them to join forces?

hint: no.

But she does come close to telling you repeatedly during the dreams, she just...stops short in a lot of cases, or speaks vaguely. And some of your responses, namely the light ones are about trying to save/redeem her etc. Both Wanda and Bruce also mention how much she loves you, and you'd think they'd have been in on the plan and could collaborate/have greater insight on what she was trying to do. I think Wanda (maybe Bruce?) mentions at some point that Lilith could access the abbey the whole time. Bruce especially should have had some idea of what was going on given his close involvement acting as an Avenger and then all the research he did after the fact.

It also raises the question of why she allows Hydra to cause so much death and destruction that's arguably unnecessary for her mission. I suppose if we're being really generous we can say she didn't trust anyone, not even her turned forces and she had to keep up an act so nobody else caught on to her disloyalty, but that still doesn't justify her vagueness in the dreams.

I thought they were going to reveal Lilith wasn't actually the big bad a little before the final mission and the last arc (maybe even full act?) would be an uneasy alliance where you work together, maybe even requiring another "purify the darkness" style boss fight. I think if they had to do a "not really evil" arc, have it be more of a "death = redemption" which is basically what they did anyway except it just feels...weird because it was always her plan.

IMO, the story would be fine if Lilith was a more simple "destroy the world" villain. Still give her a sympathetic backstory with her making the deal to save you, maybe with extra motivation of her being jaded by what she witnessed with Shaw/similar people so she thinks the world needs to be rebuilt. Given how simplistic the other villains were, it wouldn't be particularly out of character, and I think the writing was otherwise good enough where it's fine to have a generic villain. It by no means ruined the game or anything, but it was such a flash in the pan I couldn't really care.
Overlord Byron Dec 25, 2022 @ 8:16am 
Originally posted by Hogs Fattman:
But she does come close to telling you repeatedly during the dreams, she just...stops short in a lot of cases, or speaks vaguely. And some of your responses, namely the light ones are about trying to save/redeem her etc. Both Wanda and Bruce also mention how much she loves you, and you'd think they'd have been in on the plan and could collaborate/have greater insight on what she was trying to do. I think Wanda (maybe Bruce?) mentions at some point that Lilith could access the abbey the whole time. Bruce especially should have had some idea of what was going on given his close involvement acting as an Avenger and then all the research he did after the fact.

Yeah, the villain being coy about withholding information is a pretty clear sign that something's gone wrong during the writing process. Lilith ♥♥♥♥♥footing around telling the Hunter her intentions is both forced conflict and forced intrigue. She has nothing more to lose laying her cards out on the table than she does at vaguely hinting at ulterior motives. Worse case scenario Hunter doesn't believe her and both sides continue with their original plans.

Or Lilith could just walk away. If Chthon doesn't actually control her and Lilith's cooperation is necessary to completing the prophecy, what the hell is the point of any of this? Chthon is already sealed away.

Everything about Lilith is poorly handled. Uncovering her origins is optional, so the game has no idea how to handle it. One minute Caretaker is telling you she's a monster that needs to be put down, then you're in Lilith's greenhouse and Caretaker is telling you she's a good woman who sacrificed everything for Hunter, then next day Caretaker goes on about how Lilith is horrible and beyond saving.

And all of this is in service to a plot twist that isn't that compelling. Lilith wanted to kill Chthon the whole time. Okay. So what? This only really serves to trivialize the last 60+ hours of gameplay that we spent trying to stop her, with the added bonus of removing the only character that could serve as a proper final boss.
Cirative Dec 25, 2022 @ 12:58pm 
Originally posted by Ulthar:
I think it was exceptionally written

How? Like, seriously. The dialogue and plot is like it was written by a middle schooler who only has a vague idea of how intrigue and deception is built.
wolfgrimdark Dec 25, 2022 @ 1:57pm 
I thought the whole story was excellent. I don't look for award winning writing in games or comics. That being said I got extremely attached to my Hunter and so that one part with the ending, tied to them, totally bothered me. I wish they had sent them back.
Last edited by wolfgrimdark; Dec 25, 2022 @ 3:27pm
plazbo Dec 25, 2022 @ 4:08pm 
Originally posted by Cirative:
Originally posted by Ulthar:
I think it was exceptionally written

How? Like, seriously. The dialogue and plot is like it was written by a middle schooler who only has a vague idea of how intrigue and deception is built.


Some people think McDonalds is good food...
How people think isn't really relevant, just some people have ♥♥♥♥ takes....it's just the way of the world.
bulldog0890 Dec 26, 2022 @ 10:13pm 
i just don't get what happened when the hunter died centuries ago. what happened? the emo kids club thing showed she was possessed by someone and then they both died. but i have no idea what that was about either
Originally posted by bulldog0890:
i just don't get what happened when the hunter died centuries ago. what happened? the emo kids club thing showed she was possessed by someone and then they both died. but i have no idea what that was about either


The Darkhold kill both of 'em
Blacksnake Jan 7, 2023 @ 5:47pm 
To be honest, Lilith tried to tell Hunter her plan plenty of times. "I would never hurt you", "I wish only to free you", she alluded to doing things to keep Hunter safe and kept chiding that Hunter kept attacking HER. Also, Doctor Strange quite pointedly told everyone that Prophecy ALWAYS comes true. His words were along the lines of "Anything we do to postpone it is like dropping a stone in a lake".

The problem is, her powerful ass sister never trusted anything she said after the Corruption set in. After centuries of trying to tell someone something, you tend to stop trying.

I would also point out that I think she was telling Hunter the plan when the Darkhold killed them. Hunter kept asking "why didnt I attack her?" in EMO KIDS. I think the Darkhold killed them, then attempted to scatter their memories. That would be the excellent writing kicking in.

And as to why she couldnt just walk away.
1. She dedicated her life to fighting Cthon. Coming up with a way to kill him would be the ultimate end-game.
2. If she did nothing, Cthon's Corruption would have a chance of completely corrupting her.
3. If she tried to just stay dead, too many ding dongs would keep trying to resurrect her in search of Power.

Last edited by Blacksnake; Jan 7, 2023 @ 5:53pm
Tahroo Jan 7, 2023 @ 9:13pm 
The story is basically the same as Thor: Ragnarok. Goal isn't to stop the prophecy, but to make it happen for a greater good.

The plot twist was kinda foreseen from the dream conversations with Lillith, and the stories from Agatha and Caretaker about Lillith when she was younger and her as a mother.
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Date Posted: Dec 24, 2022 @ 11:37am
Posts: 16