Does finding Reagents ever get less Miserable?

[Mordraine]

Is there some research or something down the line that lets you just synthesize them, or at least make them easier to find? Running all over the entire Abbey twice every day (some plants spawn in morning, some at night) is getting *extremely* miserable, but there are multiple things that require these stupid plants!

[Fringehunter7719]

Publicado originalmente por Mordraine:

And yes, you can absolutely skip/ignore it completely, but not without knowing you're foregoing a massive powerboost/min-max opportunity, and that kinda sucks for people who like powerboosts and min/maxing.

Instead of going out twice per day, go out once at night on any day it rains. That should cut down the grind by a factor of about six and you will miss nothing.

On top of that missing the odd plant won't matter at all, even on Ultimate III, so you can easily just follow the main pathways when gathering rather than searching every corner, which will yield marginal gains for several multiples more time invested.

The amount of extra resources you gain from the reagents is not actually that great. One consumable takes about 20-25 plants (though you get 1-3 per pickup), but you can get equally strong consumables for essences instead. These cost about 20 essence. One side mission, carefully chosen can easily award about 500+ essence (if you disassemble the abilities from the coil it grants and choose to focus intel and disassemble the rewards from those ops too, plus there's side objectives, interrogations and core objectives that can all up the reward) from the midway point of the game onwards.

If you really, really like some of the cauldron consumables (like Fury totems, which are legitimately great) then you can just bring Doctor Strange along and use his card Astral Meditation to get them back, so you get to have your cake and eat it.

Edit: Typo.

[Seizure Storm]

lol i just stopped farming for them

[Zebedee]

Publicado originalmente por kidcharlemagne:

One of the reasons the game appealed to me is that it's based off of Into the Breach and Slay the Spire, two my my top ten games. One thing I'm not thrilled about is single use combat items. They seem like cheat mode. Does one get any sort of info pre-battle that would allow you to make an intelligent decision about which item to bring? More importantly, is the combat worth the tedium of collecting? Thanks

Mission type and where you are in story is a good indication. People trying to min/max combat items and complaining about tedium and grind is kinda funny tbqh. The cauldron ones are helpful - especially the 50% heal - but they're not needed. Understandable though if someone's finding it all chaos and RNG with even their deckbuilding and synergies across 3 heroes. (Yes, I play on U3, no I'm not dunking on anyone, and yes one day I will put a mod on a card, today also was not that day.)

[Sanctified Reach 420]

i wish we had a mini map while we are searching for reagents, its the rpg in me coming out lol...

[Mordraine]

I mean, I would kiiiinda argue that "people trying to min/max combat items and complaining about tedium and grind" is a pretty substantial oversimplification of the situation, to the point of being dishonest. Firstly, Reagents have an impact on every aspect of the game's RPG mechanics, not just combat use items (Resources, deckbuilding, friendship bonuses, etc.). Secondly, they lock out actual full on game scenes/interactions with fun/important/engaging story elements and character interactions. Thirdly, there's grinding (which I generally enjoy), there's tedium (which I expect given how I play RPG's) and then there's unnecessary misery. This isn't grinding, and it isn't tedium, it is just unnecessary misery.

Now, it is a solid argument that maybe they become less important over time, but that doesn't change the fact that in the early/early-mid game, they are extremely important. And if you're trying to play the game at maximum possible difficulty, and get maximum possible ratings (I consider anything less than 3 stars on any mission an abject failure and retry, that's just me, no judgment for those who don't), then the early/early-mid game is *very ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ important* to do well in, as it can set you up for the rest of the game to be viable, or an absolute ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.

TL;DR - I *like* grinding and tedium. Reagent collecting in this is neither of those things, it is just cancer.

[Zebedee]

They're a useful crutch while learning the mechanics or for suboptimal deckbuilding or team compositions. Other stuff is just making me smile. glhf

[Mordraine]

Agreed, they're a crutch for people who aren't smart enough to play gud. So is having three heroes, real gamers go in with just 1. Also, no real player uses items, those are for morons. Also, unequip all but one card from your deck, decks are just a prop-up mechanic for idiots. Do you play with your monitor on? That's adorable, put a little work in and you'll realize playing blind is for the big kids. Is that a mouse and keyboard I see? How cute, someday you'll be good enough to play by holding a magnet up to your HD with a steady hand!

[Rogue]

Publicado originalmente por kidcharlemagne:

One of the reasons the game appealed to me is that it's based off of Into the Breach and Slay the Spire, two my my top ten games. One thing I'm not thrilled about is single use combat items. They seem like cheat mode. Does one get any sort of info pre-battle that would allow you to make an intelligent decision about which item to bring? More importantly, is the combat worth the tedium of collecting? Thanks

I would not say the combat items are cheat modes. They provide temporary buffs like +1 resistance/strength/block for 1-2 turns. And someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think they cost a card turn to use, so more often than not, I'd rather play an actual card than waste it on a weak, temporary bonus.

As far as crafting those items goes, it's on the bottom of my priority list because I don't find them to be that great of a deal in terms of resource investment. Every now and then I'll craft an item if I have an excess of points but for the most point, I spend the points on card upgrades which will get used way more than items.

To your last question, I think combat is a lot of fun and said above, I don't bother with the crafted items. I'm playing on normal difficulty and I don't think it's too easy or too hard.

[Fringehunter7719]

Publicado originalmente por Mordraine:

I mean, I would kiiiinda argue that "people trying to min/max combat items and complaining about tedium and grind" is a pretty substantial oversimplification of the situation, to the point of being dishonest. Firstly, Reagents have an impact on every aspect of the game's RPG mechanics, not just combat use items (Resources, deckbuilding, friendship bonuses, etc.).

So, to state the facts, gatherable reagents from the abbey grounds do four things:

• There are three (might be four, but I think it's three) completely optional side events that each need about 20 plants to very slightly change the dialogue and get a card when you do them. If you don't have the plants you can get the cards later through normal play. If you do want the card then a single 5 minute sweep of the whole abbey on a day it rains is enough to secure all the plants you need for all three (or four) events.
  
  
• You can transmute various specific plant reagents into essences at varying rates: 15 plants -> 10 essence; 25 plants -> 25 essence; 35 plants -> 50 essence. Later on you can be getting 500+ essence for a single optional mission that takes 15 minutes to complete, which is a much faster method to the same end.
  
  
• As a sub-component of the previous bullet there's also the option to turn 1 Wundagore Everbloom (the most valuable reagent by far) into 25 credits or 25 essences. These plants spawn so rarely that you won't ever be in realistic danger of losing them to double spawning even if you almost never gather plants.
  
  
• You can craft gifts with them. Only epic and legendary gifts are worth using due to the limited opportunities to hangout and hand over the gifts. By the time you unlock the recipes for those from plants you are getting about 1-3 of them every day in the gift shop in exchange for meaningless cosmetics currency you otherwise don't need anyway.
  
  
• They can be used to craft consumables that are otherwise rare. There is a different pool of consumables available for purchase for essence in the forge that you can use instead. One of the heroes has an ability that allows you to replace consumables used in a mission, which allows you to recycle the same ones over and over.

The only one of these that has a noticeable impact on gameplay is the last, and even that is sufficiently limited that you can ignore it and still do fine on the hardest difficulty.

[Fringehunter7719]

Publicado originalmente por Rogue:

I would not say the combat items are cheat modes. They provide temporary buffs like +1 resistance/strength/block for 1-2 turns. And someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think they cost a card turn to use, so more often than not, I'd rather play an actual card than waste it on a weak, temporary bonus.

They do not ever cost a card play. And to be fair some of the bonuses, like +100% damage for a turn or draw a card for every kill are very powerful.

[Mordraine]

Publicado originalmente por Fringehunter7719:

So, to state the facts, gatherable reagents from the abbey grounds do four things:

• There are three (might be four, but I think it's three) completely optional side events that each need about 20 plants to very slightly change the dialogue and get a card when you do them. If you don't have the plants you can get the cards later through normal play. If you do want the card then a single 5 minute sweep of the whole abbey on a day it rains is enough to secure all the plants you need for all three (or four) events.
  
  
• You can transmute various specific plant reagents into essences at varying rates: 15 plants -> 10 essence; 25 plants -> 25 essence; 35 plants -> 50 essence. Later on you can be getting 500+ essence for a single optional mission that takes 15 minutes to complete, which is a much faster method to the same end.
  
  
• As a sub-component of the previous bullet there's also the option to turn 1 Wundagore Everbloom (the most valuable reagent by far) into 25 credits or 25 essences. These plants spawn so rarely that you won't ever be in realistic danger of losing them to double spawning even if you almost never gather plants.
  
  
• You can craft gifts with them. Only epic and legendary gifts are worth using due to the limited opportunities to hangout and hand over the gifts. By the time you unlock the recipes for those from plants you are getting about 1-3 of them every day in the gift shop in exchange for meaningless cosmetics currency you otherwise don't need anyway.
  
  
• They can be used to craft consumables that are otherwise rare. There is a different pool of consumables available for purchase for essence in the forge that you can use instead. One of the heroes has an ability that allows you to replace consumables used in a mission, which allows you to recycle the same ones over and over.

The only one of these that has a noticeable impact on gameplay is the last, and even that is sufficiently limited that you can ignore it and still do fine on the hardest difficulty.

So to further clarify these facts for new players:

On point one, I've already had 6 events directly requiring plant reagents, and I'm still in "Part 1" of the game, so the estimation of "3 or 4" is not accurate. These events give access to story and cards you would not otherwise have access to at this point in the game (or ever, in regards to the story).

On point two, yes, you can use plants to make resources. At the point in the game where you gain the ability to do this, you are *not* going on missions that give 500 resources a night, and most of the cards you are getting are more valuable as upgrades than as burned for resources anyway. This is also a point in the game where you are very, very starved for resouces (as with all tactical RPG's, resources are tight at the start, and useless at the end). The plants give you access to more resources at the start of the game, when they are the most valuable.

On subpoint 2, you can absolutely miss Wundagore if you are unlucky. They randomly put one *inside* the abbey for me, the only plant to ever do that, and it does it one time only. It is incredibly valuable, as it lets you trade around resources very early in the game, where a glut in one and having 0 of another is extremely common.

On point 3, yes, you can craft gifts with them, and you get the ability to make rare gifts with them very early on, well before you get any other way to get rare or better gifts. Hangout opportunites are indeed very rare, and you get a lot of them well before you get the gift shop, much less upgrade it. All of those opportunities are hurt by not having gifts, but what do you know, you can get some decent gifts with reagents. The rarity of hangouts makes reagent created gifts *more* valuable, not less.

Lastly, they do indeed create consumables that can be useful, and are unique from the other crafting station. If you use a build that relies on any of these consumables, the reagents become even more valuable. If you don't want to use one specific hero and his one specific, pretty mediocre ability on 100% of the missions in the game, they become even more valuable.

Anyway, this is a tactical, resource driven RPG. *EVERY* resource in the game has value. Those resources should be challenging to acquire, because they have value. Reagents are not challenging to acquire, they are miserable to acquire, it is a very big, easily defined gulf between those two things, not a fine line.

I'm not sure whey this thread is devolving into an attempt by people to argue "Oh just ignore that aspect of the game mechanics, put your blinders on, don't get your full money's worth or engage in the full game, don't try to benefit from mechanics that were put in place as part of the intended difficulty curve and tactical layers", but I'm more than happy to say "screw that, reagents matter, because every part of the game I purchased matters to me, please make getting them less miserable, or let me know if it isn't as miserable as I thought because I'm missing something!"

Anyway, just wanted to correct or expand on some of the points above!

[Overlord Byron]

Publicado originalmente por Zebedee:

They're a useful crutch while learning the mechanics or for suboptimal deckbuilding or team compositions. Other stuff is just making me smile. glhf

You're implicitly acknowledging the tedium of the mechanic. "Yes it's bad, but it doesn't bug me so don't complain about it" isn't much of an argument for the status quo. Neither is referring to it as a crutch when the mechanics of the game encourage their use.

[Zebedee]

Publicado originalmente por Overlord Byron:

You're implicitly acknowledging the tedium of the mechanic. "Yes it's bad, but it doesn't bug me so don't complain about it" isn't much of an argument for the status quo. Neither is referring to it as a crutch when the mechanics of the game encourage their use.

If you're running round the Abbey twice a day then I'd imagine it will be quite tedious. I'd personally suggest not running round the Abbey twice a day for something which isn't central to gameplay if you find it tedious.

[Ernasty]

OP instead of posting essay after essay on the reagents, go play the game. They are incredibly easy to come by. Also, don't stress about having reagents for the different classes as you'll get another chance at completing them.

[kidcharlemagne]

Publicado originalmente por Fringehunter7719:

Publicado originalmente por Mordraine:

I mean, I would kiiiinda argue that "people trying to min/max combat items and complaining about tedium and grind" is a pretty substantial oversimplification of the situation, to the point of being dishonest. Firstly, Reagents have an impact on every aspect of the game's RPG mechanics, not just combat use items (Resources, deckbuilding, friendship bonuses, etc.).

So, to state the facts, gatherable reagents from the abbey grounds do four things:

• There are three (might be four, but I think it's three) completely optional side events that each need about 20 plants to very slightly change the dialogue and get a card when you do them. If you don't have the plants you can get the cards later through normal play. If you do want the card then a single 5 minute sweep of the whole abbey on a day it rains is enough to secure all the plants you need for all three (or four) events.
  
  
• You can transmute various specific plant reagents into essences at varying rates: 15 plants -> 10 essence; 25 plants -> 25 essence; 35 plants -> 50 essence. Later on you can be getting 500+ essence for a single optional mission that takes 15 minutes to complete, which is a much faster method to the same end.
  
  
• As a sub-component of the previous bullet there's also the option to turn 1 Wundagore Everbloom (the most valuable reagent by far) into 25 credits or 25 essences. These plants spawn so rarely that you won't ever be in realistic danger of losing them to double spawning even if you almost never gather plants.
  
  
• You can craft gifts with them. Only epic and legendary gifts are worth using due to the limited opportunities to hangout and hand over the gifts. By the time you unlock the recipes for those from plants you are getting about 1-3 of them every day in the gift shop in exchange for meaningless cosmetics currency you otherwise don't need anyway.
  
  
• They can be used to craft consumables that are otherwise rare. There is a different pool of consumables available for purchase for essence in the forge that you can use instead. One of the heroes has an ability that allows you to replace consumables used in a mission, which allows you to recycle the same ones over and over.

The only one of these that has a noticeable impact on gameplay is the last, and even that is sufficiently limited that you can ignore it and still do fine on the hardest difficulty.

Thanks a lot for all the detail. That helps a lot.