Story mode - really?

[patgarret77]

I really feel for the devs.
Their vision was a roguelike intended to put a real challenge for players: get back home with a spaceship meant for just one jump. Get everything you need in the space and deal with any kind of problems.
I have played 5 runs and I'm already reaching 3-4 systems from start.
FTL was exactly the same, inching your way to the end, learning and understanding the better strategies.

This story mode tries to water it down in order to accomodate players that want a different game and I find it very sad, both because of the public taste and because of this desire to give away the game's personality in exchange for sales.

It remembers me of a game I designed that is actually on sale on Steam (Heroes of Normandie). A strategic boardgame with some RNG in the form of actual dice you throw to come up with combat results. People were so convinced the dice were weighted against the player that they started to vote down the game (getting it to mixed from the initial very positive ranking)...all of this because they wanted to win the game without learning the actual tactics that would minimize the impact of bad rolls.
We showed them statistics (other players also showed) in order to prove the point that no weighting was happening....but nobody believed us.
In the end we had to introduce different difficulty levels in which, incredible, the dice were actually weighted, but in favor of the player! And the crowd was satisfied.

Oh, the humanity...

[Sputz]

This vision was not communicated well to the buyers, lots of them thought they get a nice space exploration game. A lot of the fans of the game knew before what awaits them, so they of course are wondering why this game gets attacked so much. The players that thought it's a nice exploration game paid a very high price for something that does nothing but punish them for trying to explore.

I think it's a good thing that the devs reacted and made a setting so that even the more casual people can enjoy it.. the fans of hard rougelikes have still the original modes.

A vision may be fine, but in the end the product you want to sell has to be enjoyable to people who are supposed to buy it. Or you could do it like Dwarf Fortress.. make your vision true, stay true to it, but don't try to make a lot of money of it.

[allocater]

The orginal vision was flawed, because making a game where one play through takes ~10hours, can't arbitrary kill you at hour9 or even hour2. Why would people put up with that?

If you want a hardcore game that kills you, a playthrough should be 1 hour max. (Like Tharsis and FTL).

Also how many hours are you expecting people to put in to learn all the traps and boni? 100h+?

[patgarret77]

I have never been arbitrarly killed. Every single time I knew what happened. A failure can be fixed or worked around.
Again, it all comes down to a vision and to the fact that people want something different and do not take the piss of reading or watching videos of the game, they just buy and then refund (and whine in the process).

[Devoras]

I refunded the game already, so I'm not even sure if the new story mode has fixed any of the problems, but this game is quite a bit different than FTL. I loved FTL, but I hate this game. The poor controls I could manage, but being forced to take damage almost every time I land was too much; especially considering there was no reason for it. My lander pilot shouldn't be shooting into the atmosphere as fast as possible, so fast that your underpowered thrusters can't stop your motion before hitting the ground on planets with average gravity.

As a comparison, it would be like if FTL had a random missile fire and randomly damage you for no reason every time you jumped to a new node. Being difficult isn't the problem, being unable to avoid something no matter what you do, is. I don't know if they even fixed this problem under the new story mode. Just lowering the damage wouldn't be enough, I'd want my lander to start in the atmosphere with very little pre-loaded motion, or have the ability to maneuver it myself from higher up so it has very little pre-loaded motion once it gets into the atmosphere. Otherwise they haven't removed the frustration at all.

It's also kind of strange that they punish exploring so severely when that's a big part(the fun part) of the game, but because you use up so many resources trying to land, they are actively discouraging you from exploring. So I will have to decide: do I want to explore(and have fun) or do I want to give myself a good chance of surviving.

In addition, FTL had a sense of long term progressing and things to strive for, as you work to unlock new ships to play with. That was a big part of keeping it interesting to play again, and this game has nothing like that, as far as I'm aware.

[sic]

The other modes are still there, no? Nobody complains and wants to make the harder difficulty easier.

As a pro player, who brag about never killed, you dont actually loose anything with the new story mode. Roguelike is still there for you, go play it and beat it.

[Harvester]

Unlike some I actually look forward to starting a new game everytime I get killed. I'm not sure wha the problem is. :-)

You do have to use a better lander pilot to get better beginning situations. Also, do not try heavy gravity/convection at first or you will die.

You also need to realize the differences between the ships/landers. I see posts asking if they are different .... they are different and they do make a difference in gameplay.

BTW, I actually never watch gameplay videos of these types of games because most of the fun is figuring these things out. Well, there is a second reason .... most of them are morons and pay more attention to their chat than they do the game ... then complain about the obvious that they missed because they were busy watching chat. :-)

[Andragon]

So what is your problem? The rogue mode is still in the game. Choose it and get of the game what you want. Does it really hurt your fun that someone else looking for something easier hasfun, too?

[Harvester]

Originally posted by Andragon:

So what is your problem? The rogue mode is still in the game. Choose it and get of the game what you want. Does it really hurt your fun that someone else looking for something easier hasfun, too?

Try not to let what I say bother you so much Andragon. It's bad for your health. :-)

[Lein]

Originally posted by patgarret77:

[...] Oh, the humanity...

I'm with you.

The experience you're relating makes me think of another space game, Tharsis, which I'm sure the people at Daedalic had in mind while working on The Long Journey Home. Like Heroes of Normandie, it brings its tabletop mechanics to the screen in the form of actual dice, that you throw when you have to -*giggles*- fix the systems that just won't stop breaking on your ship's way to Mars.
No surprise, some people got mad there too. And this fine game ended up at its current position on Steam. With mixed reviews.

So yes, I find it sad that the team behind The Long Journey Home had to endure such grumpiness. I bet a lot of serious-talking happened before they finally decided to tone it down. Especially given how clear it is that much care and benevolence were put in the fabrication of the game.

But oh well... bah.

That won't bring the zep' down, right ?

[Shgon Dunstan]

Yeah... A 10+ hour rouge-lite where simple RNG can kill you, and you might not even notice for systems. Where half the challenge in the early game is just learning the clunky lander controls. Oh, and you get nothing out of those 10+ hours but experience and achievements...

There's a market, I'm sure. But it's not all that big of one. Certainly nothing compared to just adding in the story modes rewind for those moments like when you first find out what a black hole looks like. The hard way.

[BritishTrashPanda]

I'm not understanding what the problem is that you're seeing with people having a choice. People playing the game on an easier difficulty setting doesn't hurt you in *any* way.

Most people would be thanking the devs for taking feedback & criticism into account, and acting on it.

[Lein]

The thing is that actually, many cultural products aren't open workshops. They aren't meant to be reshaped to their audience's whims.

[Shgon Dunstan]

Originally posted by C.E.T.I.O.:

The thing is that actually, many cultural products aren't open workshops. They aren't meant to be reshaped to their audience's whims.

... Good luck actually making money with that "sense of artistic pride".


The game is enjoyable, but... It kinda feels like it makes you have to work towards that enjoyment just at tad too much, and not in a "it's hard. Gut gud" kind of way at that. Hell, once you get past the controls I wouldn't even call it hard. Tricky maybe, but a lot of it is just tons more of the same thing you've been doing for hours. It's more a "it takes forever, and can easy put you back on square one at any moment".

[warhawk_rider]

Perhaps these players feel easy mode takes away the feeling of accomplishment that a player obtains from doing well in Explorer or Rogue mode. I don't know...just guessing...

[Shgon Dunstan]

Originally posted by warhawk_rider:

Perhaps these players feel easy mode takes away the feeling of accomplishment that a player obtains from doing well in Explorer or Rogue mode. I don't know...just guessing...

Then they are being silly.

But no, from what I can see they're are either being elitist affronted at the very IDEA of casual ♥♥♥♥ ruining their EPs, or just out and out trolling.