Why are some PVE servers banning the ESP mod?

[wildbill]

The ESP or similar mods show you the location of all mobs, even ones under the ground. ESP will also show you the location of ores, not just the ones in the tunnels you have mined.

The mod is optional, you of course must install it to get these features and you can disable them if you don't want them.

So the server is PvE, which in a general sense, means Player vs Environment, not Player vs Player. This mod and mods like it give you advantage over other players (or over yourself) that don't use it. The also give you an advantage over the environment of course (mobs in this case). But in PvE, we are not competing against each other or are we? Or maybe on those servers that ban it, there is still an element of PvP, but just not directly attacking and destroying other players, but somehow competing against them?

I actually don't like any sort of PvP competition, not even something like a fishing derby. Any sort of competition in Wurm is really just about who has played the most hours and has utilized the most hours to raise the required skill the highest. This is a hard core player win every time, so what is the point for a casual player like me?

I'm playing the game to have fun, so why take away a mod that makes it more fun for the casual player? Or do these servers want to discourage the casual player from playing on their server? Possibly they feel if the game is too easy you will lose interest in the game as it will not be challenging enough? I think when a player does chose (this mod give you a choice) to engage a more difficult mob, they can then experience the challenge at that point. When they are ready, not when they are just starting and it just is more frustration than any fun.

BTW, I did play without the ESP for a few weeks on a server that allowed it. The main outcome was that I ended up dead in situations where with the ESP mod, I would have never even have come in contact with the mob that attacked me. I ended up in one case needing the help of several long time players of the server, where I could have done fine on my own with ESP in use. Not sure if the experienced players on the server would want to spend more of their time bailing out newer players or not.

I really don't understand this ban, all opinions are welcome here.

[bob_2059]

Why are some PVE servers banning the ESP mod?

More importantly, how are they enforcing it?
The server has no control over client-side mods.

I had players ask me about mods. As I told them, I can't control what mods a person uses, I can't detect what mods a person uses.
In business, management trainees learn "don't implement a policy you can't enforce."
If you're in the military, somewhere along the line all officer candidates learn "don't give an order that won't be followed."
For Wurm Servers, "don't make rules you can't enforce."

[Azeloth]

Even in PVE server you compete against other player, and play with other player, Mobs are cooking resources, ores are resouces for building and crafing what can be used to sell to vendors or other peoples and it will mess up economy if too much Gold silver adamantite items will go to market so whats the point of playing if every one has easily max items. Even in PVE server people want to focus on specific skill and some one wants to be ship builder other one wants to be cook so they can sell their product and buy other products, but if resouces are easily gained READ all people use ESP mod, then there is no point. OR one or two oeople use ESP mod so this is unfair for others when to flood up vendors with easily gained items and take all the money

[wildbill]

Originally posted by bob_2059:

Why are some PVE servers banning the ESP mod?

More importantly, how are they enforcing it?
The server has no control over client-side mods.

I had players ask me about mods. As I told them, I can't control what mods a person uses, I can't detect what mods a person uses.
In business, management trainees learn "don't implement a policy you can't enforce."
If you're in the military, somewhere along the line all officer candidates learn "don't give an order that won't be followed."
For Wurm Servers, "don't make rules you can't enforce."

Not sure how they are enforcing it, like you say, they can't. What some of them say they are doing is banning you if you are caught using them. I assume caught would be something like you are swerving this way and that to avoid mobs that are normally not seen. Or you head straight for the treasure chest that you see, but no one else is finding.

Seems like this sort of policy will just create a sense of mistrust by the PMs of their player base. If I was a PM on one of these servers, I certainly wouldn't want the job of catching these "cheaters".

[Zera_Fox]

Originally posted by billwerth2:

Originally posted by bob_2059:

More importantly, how are they enforcing it?
The server has no control over client-side mods.

I had players ask me about mods. As I told them, I can't control what mods a person uses, I can't detect what mods a person uses.
In business, management trainees learn "don't implement a policy you can't enforce."
If you're in the military, somewhere along the line all officer candidates learn "don't give an order that won't be followed."
For Wurm Servers, "don't make rules you can't enforce."

Not sure how they are enforcing it, like you say, they can't. What some of them say they are doing is banning you if you are caught using them. I assume caught would be something like you are swerving this way and that to avoid mobs that are normally not seen. Or you head straight for the treasure chest that you see, but no one else is finding.

Seems like this sort of policy will just create a sense of mistrust by the PMs of their player base. If I was a PM on one of these servers, I certainly wouldn't want the job of catching these "cheaters".

There is a mod out there that blocks these entirely. The data is prevented from being sent to the client early, it can be taxing on a server not equipped to handle it, but there is a non-"We saw that!" method of stopping these sorts of mods.

And while someone already stated, even on a PvE map being able to see mobs through hills and trees with ESP or Ores underground before you've uncovered them, hurts the PvE economy.
In any game there is an Economy, there is Player "vs" Player not in a competing sense but in a sense that "This Player has X vs That Player not having X" and hence where the trade and coin economy comes into play.

For players who DO use (or try to) these mods, over those who do not. Are at an advantage. Which is why servers discourage or completely block out the use of those mods.

Personally I feel if you want to use ESP to see mobs, or Mods to find those ores.. I don't think you belong on a multiplayer. That's my opinion.
For the simple fact that not only is multiplayer for 'chatting' but it's also cooperation, communication and all that.
What cooperation do you need if you can spot the dangerous/easy mobs?
Find every ore you could possibly ever need just by opening up a mine?

This sort of thing is no different than using X-RAY texture packs or mods on your Minecraft Client. :P An Advantage is an Advantage and it's just plain unfair.

[wildbill]

Originally posted by Zera_Fox:

Originally posted by billwerth2:

Not sure how they are enforcing it, like you say, they can't. What some of them say they are doing is banning you if you are caught using them. I assume caught would be something like you are swerving this way and that to avoid mobs that are normally not seen. Or you head straight for the treasure chest that you see, but no one else is finding.

Seems like this sort of policy will just create a sense of mistrust by the PMs of their player base. If I was a PM on one of these servers, I certainly wouldn't want the job of catching these "cheaters".

There is a mod out there that blocks these entirely. The data is prevented from being sent to the client early, it can be taxing on a server not equipped to handle it, but there is a non-"We saw that!" method of stopping these sorts of mods.

And while someone already stated, even on a PvE map being able to see mobs through hills and trees with ESP or Ores underground before you've uncovered them, hurts the PvE economy.
In any game there is an Economy, there is Player "vs" Player not in a competing sense but in a sense that "This Player has X vs That Player not having X" and hence where the trade and coin economy comes into play.

For players who DO use (or try to) these mods, over those who do not. Are at an advantage. Which is why servers discourage or completely block out the use of those mods.

Personally I feel if you want to use ESP to see mobs, or Mods to find those ores.. I don't think you belong on a multiplayer. That's my opinion.
For the simple fact that not only is multiplayer for 'chatting' but it's also cooperation, communication and all that.
What cooperation do you need if you can spot the dangerous/easy mobs?
Find every ore you could possibly ever need just by opening up a mine?

This sort of thing is no different than using X-RAY texture packs or mods on your Minecraft Client. :P An Advantage is an Advantage and it's just plain unfair.

Ah, was wondering how they would spot it.

I use the ESP mod on a server that encourages it. The mod is not magic, it can't create a resource in your mine if it doesn't exist. I have two mines, one has no silver or Zinc anywhere near any of my shafts. I could have spent a week creating shafts two or three tiles apart and found that out the hard way, or use ESP to tell me that I need to look somewhere else. My 2nd mine had both of these, although without ESP, it probably would have taken a few days to find it.

ESP does not make "resouces are easily gained" like someone says above. It just makes them easy to find. You still need to spend the hours it takes to mine them and craft them into something a trader will buy. I'm kind of new to the game, maybe after I've played 5 years or more I will want to play one of the servers where this mod is banned. But for all the new players, I think 90% of them would prefer having ESP as an option.

So are all those servers that are banning ESP, are they really banning new players from their servers?

The economy in Wurm is something we would all like to see work and to have everyone on the server trade and cooperate with each other. Although realistically, if you don't have a high population on your server, there is very little chance for any sort of economy to get started and thrive. I tried buying stuff on the server I play on, and either you could not find what you wanted or it was way overpriced. The upside was that everyone is very friendly (maybe because there is no economy), and will just usually give you outright whatever item it is that you as a new player can't get your hands on. Of course they won't give away end game items. Those you buy once you reach that stage where you need them.

[bob_2059]

There is a mod out there that blocks these entirely. The data is prevented from being sent to the client early, it can be taxing on a server not equipped to handle it, but there is a non-"We saw that!" method of stopping these sorts of mods.

But even then, you still can't prevent a person from using the ESP mod nor can you even tell if they're using it.
Limiting the data sent may reduce or even eliminate the effectiveness of the ESP mod, but you can't prevent a person from using it.

Let me clarify my position.
A server-side mod to limit what data is sent to the client: I'm fine with that.
Making rules against client-side mods, when there is no mechanism in place to tell what mods, if any, a client is using: An exercise in futility.

[wildbill]

Originally posted by bob_2059:

There is a mod out there that blocks these entirely. The data is prevented from being sent to the client early, it can be taxing on a server not equipped to handle it, but there is a non-"We saw that!" method of stopping these sorts of mods.

But even then, you still can't prevent a person from using the ESP mod nor can you even tell if they're using it.
Limiting the data sent may reduce or even eliminate the effectiveness of the ESP mod, but you can't prevent a person from using it.

Let me clarify my position.
A server-side mod to limit what data is sent to the client: I'm fine with that.
Making rules against client-side mods, when there is no mechanism in place to tell what mods, if any, a client is using: An exercise in futility.

Very good point. The futility of their actions has not stopped people in the past though

I started this thread more to find out why they think it is necessary to control what client mods people run when playing Wurm Unlimited on a server. There is another mod that is just a few lines of code that simply stops collisions with trees. It also got the same scorn as ESP from the hard core wurmian crowd.

There is always a resistance to any change, it seems to be a built in instinct in humans to not want things to change. Wurm was out many years before Wurm Unlimited was released and created a sort of status quo. I watched a video when Wurm Unlimited first came out (sort of a review of it) and the you tuber was completely against the ability to have so much control of how you create a server. Things like setting the skill and action time to 2x were frowned on by him. A year later his videos were all done on high rate servers like most you tubers use.

I'm curious if most players on the servers that ban ESP are those that played Wurm when it was only available in the online version, before Wurm Unlimited. In the Wurm online version, things like the economy were vital to how it worked, and using any client side mod would get you banned. It seems some have carried this philosophy over to Wurm Unlimited. I don't understand what they are protecting. Wurm online had its subscription that gave you premium and any client mod that reduced the value of premium would cut into their profits. So that all made sense.

I personally will not play on any server that bans ESP. I hope this anti-ESP and things like it doesn't spread, although I don't really see much chance of that.

[Zera_Fox]

Originally posted by bob_2059:

There is a mod out there that blocks these entirely. The data is prevented from being sent to the client early, it can be taxing on a server not equipped to handle it, but there is a non-"We saw that!" method of stopping these sorts of mods.

But even then, you still can't prevent a person from using the ESP mod nor can you even tell if they're using it.
Limiting the data sent may reduce or even eliminate the effectiveness of the ESP mod, but you can't prevent a person from using it.

Let me clarify my position.
A server-side mod to limit what data is sent to the client: I'm fine with that.
Making rules against client-side mods, when there is no mechanism in place to tell what mods, if any, a client is using: An exercise in futility.

No, we can't stop someone from installing these mods.
But the mod on the server stops that mod from working altogether. Since the data isn't being sent to the client, which is what the ESP mod needs to work in the first place. It completely stops it's use as it ceases to function completely.

Originally posted by billwerth2:

Originally posted by Zera_Fox:

There is a mod out there that blocks these entirely. The data is prevented from being sent to the client early, it can be taxing on a server not equipped to handle it, but there is a non-"We saw that!" method of stopping these sorts of mods.

And while someone already stated, even on a PvE map being able to see mobs through hills and trees with ESP or Ores underground before you've uncovered them, hurts the PvE economy.
In any game there is an Economy, there is Player "vs" Player not in a competing sense but in a sense that "This Player has X vs That Player not having X" and hence where the trade and coin economy comes into play.

For players who DO use (or try to) these mods, over those who do not. Are at an advantage. Which is why servers discourage or completely block out the use of those mods.

Personally I feel if you want to use ESP to see mobs, or Mods to find those ores.. I don't think you belong on a multiplayer. That's my opinion.
For the simple fact that not only is multiplayer for 'chatting' but it's also cooperation, communication and all that.
What cooperation do you need if you can spot the dangerous/easy mobs?
Find every ore you could possibly ever need just by opening up a mine?

This sort of thing is no different than using X-RAY texture packs or mods on your Minecraft Client. :P An Advantage is an Advantage and it's just plain unfair.

Ah, was wondering how they would spot it.

I use the ESP mod on a server that encourages it. The mod is not magic, it can't create a resource in your mine if it doesn't exist. I have two mines, one has no silver or Zinc anywhere near any of my shafts. I could have spent a week creating shafts two or three tiles apart and found that out the hard way, or use ESP to tell me that I need to look somewhere else. My 2nd mine had both of these, although without ESP, it probably would have taken a few days to find it.

ESP does not make "resouces are easily gained" like someone says above. It just makes them easy to find. You still need to spend the hours it takes to mine them and craft them into something a trader will buy. I'm kind of new to the game, maybe after I've played 5 years or more I will want to play one of the servers where this mod is banned. But for all the new players, I think 90% of them would prefer having ESP as an option.

So are all those servers that are banning ESP, are they really banning new players from their servers?

The economy in Wurm is something we would all like to see work and to have everyone on the server trade and cooperate with each other. Although realistically, if you don't have a high population on your server, there is very little chance for any sort of economy to get started and thrive. I tried buying stuff on the server I play on, and either you could not find what you wanted or it was way overpriced. The upside was that everyone is very friendly (maybe because there is no economy), and will just usually give you outright whatever item it is that you as a new player can't get your hands on. Of course they won't give away end game items. Those you buy once you reach that stage where you need them.

No, it can't create a resource where it doesn't exist, but by making it much easier to find is enough.
And as you've stated, "You still need to put in work to get to it, but without it I would've had to put in more work".

It's that "More Work" that you're avoiding, ergo having an advantage. Which actually yes, does translate to "Easily obtained" vs not having it.

I think it really boils down to what sort of gameplay you are after. You are into "Easy" then you'll want these sorts of mods.
A server who isn't into "Easy" isn't going to encourage them to their players, nor going to support their usage in any form either.
There are actually plenty of players who would rather experience the game for what it was meant to be. A survival challenge, where exploration, danger and threat is part of the game. Rather than using such mods that make avoiding danger or finding your preferred ores easier.

It's preference, sure. But not everyone is going to want an easy route, even if they are Day 1 to the game.

I suppose a good way to look at it, would you want to play on a server that allowed players to fly around everywhere?
Or allowed only certain players to instantly craft 100QL items from the start?

This is an advantage, and the same kind of advantage that ESP gives.
The 100QL folks still have to gather the materials to make their stuff.
The flyers still have to gather and travel to locations.

End Note: They're advantages that preset big changes to the game and an advantage over it.
This is why many PvE and PvP servers alike have rules in place against ESP mod(s).

[bob_2059]

Originally posted by Zera_Fox:

No, we can't stop someone from installing these mods.
But the mod on the server stops that mod from working altogether. Since the data isn't being sent to the client, which is what the ESP mod needs to work in the first place. It completely stops it's use as it ceases to function completely.

...at which point, why forbid the mod? Why make using it a bannable offense?

...the ESP mod
does
nothing...

If a server admin wants, they can limit what data is sent from their server to connected clients. Great! Problem solved! No need to forbid use of the ESP mod since it's been rendered inert!

But nobody has addressed what I've been saying all along: there's no way to tell what mods a client is using; that classifying certain mods as forbidden is unenforceable and an exercise in futility.

[wildbill]

Originally posted by Zera_Fox:

Originally posted by bob_2059:

But even then, you still can't prevent a person from using the ESP mod nor can you even tell if they're using it.
Limiting the data sent may reduce or even eliminate the effectiveness of the ESP mod, but you can't prevent a person from using it.

Let me clarify my position.
A server-side mod to limit what data is sent to the client: I'm fine with that.
Making rules against client-side mods, when there is no mechanism in place to tell what mods, if any, a client is using: An exercise in futility.

No, we can't stop someone from installing these mods.
But the mod on the server stops that mod from working altogether. Since the data isn't being sent to the client, which is what the ESP mod needs to work in the first place. It completely stops it's use as it ceases to function completely.

Originally posted by billwerth2:

Ah, was wondering how they would spot it.

I use the ESP mod on a server that encourages it. The mod is not magic, it can't create a resource in your mine if it doesn't exist. I have two mines, one has no silver or Zinc anywhere near any of my shafts. I could have spent a week creating shafts two or three tiles apart and found that out the hard way, or use ESP to tell me that I need to look somewhere else. My 2nd mine had both of these, although without ESP, it probably would have taken a few days to find it.

ESP does not make "resouces are easily gained" like someone says above. It just makes them easy to find. You still need to spend the hours it takes to mine them and craft them into something a trader will buy. I'm kind of new to the game, maybe after I've played 5 years or more I will want to play one of the servers where this mod is banned. But for all the new players, I think 90% of them would prefer having ESP as an option.

So are all those servers that are banning ESP, are they really banning new players from their servers?

The economy in Wurm is something we would all like to see work and to have everyone on the server trade and cooperate with each other. Although realistically, if you don't have a high population on your server, there is very little chance for any sort of economy to get started and thrive. I tried buying stuff on the server I play on, and either you could not find what you wanted or it was way overpriced. The upside was that everyone is very friendly (maybe because there is no economy), and will just usually give you outright whatever item it is that you as a new player can't get your hands on. Of course they won't give away end game items. Those you buy once you reach that stage where you need them.

No, it can't create a resource where it doesn't exist, but by making it much easier to find is enough.
And as you've stated, "You still need to put in work to get to it, but without it I would've had to put in more work".

It's that "More Work" that you're avoiding, ergo having an advantage. Which actually yes, does translate to "Easily obtained" vs not having it.

I think it really boils down to what sort of gameplay you are after. You are into "Easy" then you'll want these sorts of mods.
A server who isn't into "Easy" isn't going to encourage them to their players, nor going to support their usage in any form either.
There are actually plenty of players who would rather experience the game for what it was meant to be. A survival challenge, where exploration, danger and threat is part of the game. Rather than using such mods that make avoiding danger or finding your preferred ores easier.

It's preference, sure. But not everyone is going to want an easy route, even if they are Day 1 to the game.

I guess that is why it is called Wurm Unlimited. The server owner can configure it to work very similar to the original Wurm online, or they can add all the mods they can find to it to make the game easier to play. Or somewhere in between.

It is to the advantage of each server to make it very clear (most that I have seen do) which mode of game play they allow. If not, then their turn-over of new players is going to be higher when a new player finds his preferred mode of play is not allowed.

[Zera_Fox]

Originally posted by bob_2059:

Originally posted by Zera_Fox:

No, we can't stop someone from installing these mods.
But the mod on the server stops that mod from working altogether. Since the data isn't being sent to the client, which is what the ESP mod needs to work in the first place. It completely stops it's use as it ceases to function completely.

...at which point, why forbid the mod? Why make using it a bannable offense?

...the ESP mod
does
nothing...

If a server admin wants, they can limit what data is sent from their server to connected clients. Great! Problem solved! No need to forbid use of the ESP mod since it's been rendered inert!

But nobody has addressed what I've been saying all along: there's no way to tell what mods a client is using; that classifying certain mods as forbidden is unenforceable and an exercise in futility.

Finding someone who's using ESP is actually very easy.
Go check on their mine, you'll find nothing but a straight shot to the nearest Iron, or other ores.
If there are tunnels that lead to nothing and dead-ends, huge open cave areas then you can bet 99% that they're using a mod to easily locate these ores.
It's not as hard to spot as you'd think.

[Zera_Fox]

Originally posted by billwerth2:

Originally posted by Zera_Fox:

No, we can't stop someone from installing these mods.
But the mod on the server stops that mod from working altogether. Since the data isn't being sent to the client, which is what the ESP mod needs to work in the first place. It completely stops it's use as it ceases to function completely.




No, it can't create a resource where it doesn't exist, but by making it much easier to find is enough.
And as you've stated, "You still need to put in work to get to it, but without it I would've had to put in more work".

It's that "More Work" that you're avoiding, ergo having an advantage. Which actually yes, does translate to "Easily obtained" vs not having it.

I think it really boils down to what sort of gameplay you are after. You are into "Easy" then you'll want these sorts of mods.
A server who isn't into "Easy" isn't going to encourage them to their players, nor going to support their usage in any form either.
There are actually plenty of players who would rather experience the game for what it was meant to be. A survival challenge, where exploration, danger and threat is part of the game. Rather than using such mods that make avoiding danger or finding your preferred ores easier.

It's preference, sure. But not everyone is going to want an easy route, even if they are Day 1 to the game.

I guess that is why it is called Wurm Unlimited. The server owner can configure it to work very similar to the original Wurm online, or they can add all the mods they can find to it to make the game easier to play. Or somewhere in between.

It is to the advantage of each server to make it very clear (most that I have seen do) which mode of game play they allow. If not, then their turn-over of new players is going to be higher when a new player finds his preferred mode of play is not allowed.

This can also be said for the ESP encouraged servers too though. Fair Play players who discover other players on the same server are using mods that provide that advantage, or a server that encourages their use will likely leave too.
It's a two-sided coin and no one is 'better' than the other.

This is why there are so many different servers to choose from, even if most of them deny the use of ESP mods.
Sure many like the Vanilla rates of x1/x1 and others want servers that are x10/x10+.

[wildbill]

Originally posted by Zera_Fox:

Originally posted by billwerth2:

I guess that is why it is called Wurm Unlimited. The server owner can configure it to work very similar to the original Wurm online, or they can add all the mods they can find to it to make the game easier to play. Or somewhere in between.

It is to the advantage of each server to make it very clear (most that I have seen do) which mode of game play they allow. If not, then their turn-over of new players is going to be higher when a new player finds his preferred mode of play is not allowed.

This can also be said for the ESP encouraged servers too though. Fair Play players who discover other players on the same server are using mods that provide that advantage, or a server that encourages their use will likely leave too.
It's a two-sided coin and no one is 'better' than the other.

This is why there are so many different servers to choose from, even if most of them deny the use of ESP mods.
Sure many like the Vanilla rates of x1/x1 and others want servers that are x10/x10+.

Yes, we are actually in 100% agreement at this point

Although I don't like the name Fair Play. Sounds like the rest of us are cheating. It isn't cheating when the server provides links to the mods to install and nearly everyone on the server uses them.

Maybe call it Pro-Choice and Original Style Wurm.

When I started playing Wurm Unlimited a few months ago, I had no idea there was such a big group of hard core players. I'm actually a bit surprised. I assumed people playing a game this old would be a bit more laided back then they are

[bob_2059]

Originally posted by Zera_Fox:

Finding someone who's using ESP is actually very easy.
Go check on their mine, you'll find nothing but a straight shot to the nearest Iron, or other ores.

No, because we've established the server admin can mod the server to only send data regarding exposed tiles.

You've said it yourself, there are server-side mods that can render ESP non-functional. At that point, what is to be gained by disallowing the use of the mod?
I don't know how many ways I can phrase this question that you're not answering.

Also, have you ever heard of surface prospecting and Analyze skill? Have you considered that you may be banning people who aren't using any mods, but are using a methodical, analytical approach to their mining? Or even people who just got lucky.

If there are tunnels that lead to nothing and dead-ends, huge open cave areas then you can bet 99% that they're using a mod to easily locate these ores.

Uhh... what? If people don't find ores they're cheating?? What sort of messed-up logic is that?

[Zera_Fox]

Originally posted by bob_2059:

Originally posted by Zera_Fox:

Finding someone who's using ESP is actually very easy.
Go check on their mine, you'll find nothing but a straight shot to the nearest Iron, or other ores.

No, because we've established the server admin can mod the server to only send data regarding exposed tiles.

You've said it yourself, there are server-side mods that can render ESP non-functional. At that point, what is to be gained by disallowing the use of the mod?
I don't know how many ways I can phrase this question that you're not answering.

Also, have you ever heard of surface prospecting and Analyze skill? Have you considered that you may be banning people who aren't using any mods, but are using a methodical, analytical approach to their mining? Or even people who just got lucky.

If there are tunnels that lead to nothing and dead-ends, huge open cave areas then you can bet 99% that they're using a mod to easily locate these ores.

Uhh... what? If people don't find ores they're cheating?? What sort of messed-up logic is that?

I've answered your question, I am not at fault here if you're not reading me properly.
Yes I'll admit I forgot the word "not" in that last bit you quote here.

If there are not tunnels that lead to nothing and dead-ends, huge open cave areas then you can bet 99% that they're using a mod to easily locate these ores.

Originally posted by bob_2059:

nor can you even tell if they're using it.

You can tell someone is using ESP if they've dug a straight line for 8 tiles, took a right after that point and then dug again for another 4 tiles to that location.

As opposed to digging a few tiles in straight, then turning (or making a huge hole) then deciding to take a different direction and make a new turn off the main tunnel instead. You know, the typical "I'm searching for ores in my mine I've opened up, but am not directly digging a straight-forward tunnel to it" method of finding them.
I KNOW this is an obvious way to find it, as I have infact seen it happen first hand. This is an exact instance that I saw personally of a player with barely 5 Prospecting on my own server.

Surface Prospect only shows a radius of 3 tiles around your Prospect location, no more and no less. To Tunnel directly in that fashion to an Iron Vein, with no "well it's not down here" extra tunnels is an obvious give-away.
I KNOW this because just to be sure, I installed and enabled the mod myself to be sure.

Originally posted by billwerth2:

Originally posted by Zera_Fox:

This can also be said for the ESP encouraged servers too though. Fair Play players who discover other players on the same server are using mods that provide that advantage, or a server that encourages their use will likely leave too.
It's a two-sided coin and no one is 'better' than the other.

This is why there are so many different servers to choose from, even if most of them deny the use of ESP mods.
Sure many like the Vanilla rates of x1/x1 and others want servers that are x10/x10+.

Yes, we are actually in 100% agreement at this point

Although I don't like the name Fair Play. Sounds like the rest of us are cheating. It isn't cheating when the server provides links to the mods to install and nearly everyone on the server uses them.

Maybe call it Pro-Choice and Original Style Wurm.

When I started playing Wurm Unlimited a few months ago, I had no idea there was such a big group of hard core players. I'm actually a bit surprised. I assumed people playing a game this old would be a bit more laided back then they are

Is it not considered cheating if someone decides to use Codes to spawn in Tanks while playing Grand Theft Auto? :P

It is not part of the game directly as it's intended original play, so it hard not to consider using an outside, player provided source to make the game easier, as not cheating the game itself.
If the entire server uses it, it is encouraged. I suppose then it is a server that encourages the use of the methods to cheat the game in it's original form.

Even using a mini-map mod, that does nothing more than show you a small version of the area around you is cheatsie in that regard. Wurm does not provide you with this tool in any shape or form, it is not intended to provide it and instead as a game expects you to use your land-marks, compass and in-game (whole) map to find your personal location.
I encourage the use of the mini-map on my server, but I will not deny the fact that is actually cheating the intended method of travel and self-location in the world.