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討論區規矩與守則
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Agents have full access in and out of the dark zone.
It's not because they were left behind themselves, it's because they had sacrificed a lot of agents into keeping the dark zone for ultimately having the government pull out of it.
All their work was in vain, and they blamed the government for it, so they went rogue.
The LMB restores order by instilling fear and taking a very black/white perspective to everything... to them, the smallest of infractions is punishable by death. This is proven in an Echo in which a couple of LMB soldiers in a Police Station toss a hand grenade into a holding cell full of prisoners whom are simply there for disorderly conduct.
The Cleaners will burn any hint of the virus... even if that hint is a false positive... there are countless echo's of cleaners burning people alive that have a cough or sniffle. To them... there is never too much 'collateral damage' and it is better to clense something and be wrong then let it go lose and infect others. Which means simply being in close proximity to something that is infected is effectively a death sentence regardless if you are infected or not.
They were left behind, Echo footage shows it clearly when first wave agents needed support, JTF did not respond.
They made their way out without any help and had to leave civilians behind. Some of them were also killed whlist trying.
The real kicker is that The Division isn't really much better when you think about it. A private army of highly-skilled sleeper agents answerable only to the president and otherwise above the law, empowered to use lethal force to further their ends...
The precise goals of these factions don't line up with the Division, but the methods are right there, and that's pretty horrible if you put it in a real world context.
But but... what about all the water and medkits I gave to civilians in need?
Lots of people want to restore order, but there are very different kinds of orders.
For instance, the Weimar Republic in post-WWI Germany (dealing with a nation that had quite literally collapsed into lawlessness, anarchy, and rioting) wanted to restore order under a constitutional democratic republic.
On the other hand, the old Imperial military wanted to restore order by tossing out the constitution and crushing all opposition to bring back what would basically be Bismarck's Reich, Take 2.
Then the Spartakists and other communist terrorists wanted to overthrow the Republic, the old imperial military, and the like to basically establish a "peoples' republic" read authoritarian dictatorship.
And of course, the nationalist terrorist underground like the future Nazis wanted to get rid of all others and establish a properly "German" dictatorships.
That is sort of the difference between the JTF and the LMB and Cleaners. The difference between trying to bring back an American Republic, and trying to establish a genocidal dictatorship.
The LMB betrayed the JTF and slaughtered a number of their people, which besides any other ideological conflicts would make them enemies.
The Cleaners are trying to burn too much of the city down.
That's the problem.
Burning down infected areas and people who have come in contact with the virus- by their own Extremely Distorted and overkill critera- not only kills a lot of people and might destroy the city, but it actively impairs the serious efforts to actually study the virus and find a wayt o cure it.
Which is basically crucial for long term survival.
Sounds like somebody listened too much to the $hitty Extra Credits video (which made major mistakes like forgetting the Spanish Flu existed).
For the record, The Division and JTF do not seem to be a private army (given that they were placed under the control of The President The Position, not President Joe A Person the individual, like how the Nicaraguan Guardia Nacional were basically slaves of the Somozoa famil). They also do not seem to be answerable only to him given what we actualyl know of the directive they were based off of.
And they also do not summarily try to destroy all other authorities- especially civilian and legal ones- and summarily execute people for badmouthing them like Bliss does, or for coming into vague contact with the disease like the Cleaners do.
Sure, it would be pretty Nasty in a real world context. It is also a very slippery slope that could be misused in all kinds of ways. But evaluating all the many problems and potential abuses is not helped by overstating them.
Oh did any one notice what Fey says when you go into the Falcon mission? "I'm going to figure what happend to the President."
Makes you think some other stuff went on instead of just the in game stuff we have seen so far.
Heh. Yes, technically, but conclusions largely reached before watching that video, which is overly-critical in my book.
Arguably, it's a lot is due to limits of the shooter-game format, but I would feel a lot better about the Division from a story/lore perspective if we saw some effort on their part do talk down the "enemy." That really struck home in one of the Cleaner missions for me, hearing them go on and on about saving the city or world with their actions. That made me crave some way to at least try to convince them they were wrong ("Guys, we're researching a vaccine right now, there's no need for this!")
Something like that happening in-game would make the Division a good deal more relatable and seemingly sane. I like to insert a bit of that into my head-canon, but as presented by the game itself... the Division throws a lot of authority and lethal force around with no talk about consequences. I certainly argue they're better than the other factions in the game by working with the local authorities (JTF), actively furthering research for a cure, and helping the occasional citizen in need. They're just also dangerous as hell and I think Aaron Keener is a deliberate example of how the Division can go wrong.
Ok, fair enough.
Agreed, absolutely.
Likewise, even as a kill nut on games I can appreciate the concept of having some form of non lethal neutralization or the like. (After all, penal labor could be awfully useful...). I do resent the idea that someone has an obligation to seriously try and take people mtrying to murder you alive, but having the gameplay option is all fun.
Agreed, and I think it makes sense. Obviously some people will never see reason, but hey.. that's character for you.
The friend I have that really has played thius game did say he saw the Cleaners as the most moral faction, and even my curosry lore jumping means I can understand why. I think if you were going to turn significant members of any faction around, it'd be them.
Agreed, and on a gameplay perspective I think it would also help accomodate a lot of different playstyles.
Granted, *I* personally might not take advantage of it often (one of my big gripes with games is if lethal force is seriously demonized or villified... Lookin' At You Dishonored!) butit is something people clearly want. And if it's fun..why not?
Also I think it would be useful to have more.. noncombat things. Events hwere you aren't going to war with any of the Big TThree or Rioters, but where you are sort of mediating disputes among the survivor population that isn't murderous, dealing with petty crime (probably) nonlethally, or the like.
Something to represent rebuilding an actual Civilization rather than just mass producing corpses.
Agreed, absolutely.
I'd also say that Crackdown's The Agency represents another form of just how this kind of organization could go bad, and more or less become something like the LMB with greater legitimacy and a more diverse (and probably powerful) set of skills.
Heck, isn't one of the JTF safehouse bigwigs a veteran leader of organized crime? Like legitimizing the authority of THAT kind of person in a new civilization couldn't mean trouble down the line....
This is close to my thoughts as well, though I am somewhat more skeptical about the Rikers having legitimate grievances. To the extent that they exist, they are counterbalanced against the absolutely horrible behavior the rank and file member has (possibly due to Larae's corrupting influence).
Though I agree with the Cleaners.