So can Dwarves ever really beat the Orcs?

[kyroshill]

I have tried so many strats at this point, but I cannot see how the orcs and goblins can ever be truly defeated. If I am doing well against them, some else won't be... so their fightiness stays high.

Last game I even rushed Lighting Strike to eliminate the Waagh!, and it works, but I still have two MAJOR issues.

One.... it doesn't matter how much infantry the dwarves can bring to the battle, the goblin cav and cav archers will chew them up over time, every time. If you split your army to run at the archers, the enemy routs.... only to return 6 seconds later, fresh and ready.... dwarves can't catch anyone to round up and kill whole units. Trolls are the same.... they smash around and do some damage.... then run away.....

If I take the entire line after each enemy unit, they get picked apart by other routed (and returned) enemy units.

Two.... and more importantly, is that because they rout and rally so often, it turns out they don't need a Lord at all, so if you catch them out in a weakened state, the Lord can rout at battle start and save himself, meaning the dwarves can rarely, if ever, kill off high ranking Greenie Lords. So they run deep into home territory and regroup quickly and return with terror inducing Lords that scatter my most experienced Longbeards with ease.

Even after shredding most of their holdings,I find the goblins still have enough to muster small fast armies that can rip slow dwarves to shreds then chase them down before they can find the safety of walls.

I actually think I may play as the Greenies now to get a feel for the faction strength/weaknesses...

I guess I COULD try the Empire..... but maybe next time

[Gray Riders]

What's your dwarf army makeup and main battle tactic? Dwarfs are the main race I play as.

[Aleera]

Their cavalry archers giving you trouble?
Use archers on your flanks, not just pointing foward. Quarrelers win vs anything, except kiting Elf infantry because they outrange the Dwarves. Dwarves have issue vs cavalry, but ranged cavalry they will shred.

Focus fire the enemy lord. They won't rally if their lord is dead. Grimgor can and will die to 2 groups of thunderers aiming at him. Azhag even easier, only Orc warbosses survive 2 volleys, maybe.
Don't chase as Dwarves, ever. Reform your battle lines. Let them break on your wall of Dwarves.
Alternate between 2 Runepriests, for near permanent runebuffs. Again, I stress out, NEVER let your infantry chase. The enemy breaks off? Immediatly reform your battlelines. Enemies that flee will lose alot of units to missile fire. Enough that their second charge is severly weakend.

Orcs are actually quite bad vs the Dwarves, all the Orc armor piercing units get shredded by ranged units.
If you're lategame, Ironbreakers completly destroy any Orc unit except for Arachnorok and Giants. Who die insanely easy to forcus fire Thunderers.

[Milk]

Dwarves are defensive. Make them come to you. Orcs are aggressive, this should be no problem.

Basically, as long as you point your shielded units forward, orc ranged units barely do anything. But if you give chase, those arrows will tear your dwarves apart from the flanks.

[gachi is manly]

If you're really struggling against Orcs, just corner camp. A well balance dwarf army can beat two full stacks of orcs if they cheese them out by camping in a corner of the map. Make sure you always have artillery so the enemy will come to you even when you initiate the battle.

Also bring at least 5-6 units of Quarrelers to make short work of their archers and mounted archers.

[kyroshill]

I have tried all of these strats...... my forces break too easily and scatter... and of course are too slow to get back into position after rallying.

I focus fire my quarrellers on their cav..... they rout quickly and run away..... for a minute. I shift targets, rinse and repeat. In the meantime my infantry routs and I lose (not all the time, but even if I outnumber the orcs, I cannot rely on wins)

The other thing is that gobbo missile cav NEVER EVER runs out of ammo...... I just spent 20 minutes in a siege being shot at by 6 missile cav units..... at battle end, they ALL had half ammo left

In short, 1 Black Orc unit will rout 5 of my dwarves even in 5 v 1 combat , fully surrounded, all day, every day.... and don't talk to me about bringing in a Lord..... that ♥♥♥♥♥♥ will run or die half the time.... I feel like I have to guard my most valuable weapon instead of using it..... even when I do crash him in to low leadership gobbos..... it takes them ages to rout, in the meantime I lose 1/4 hp....

I normally try to have 5-7 infantry (usually shielded), 4 quarrellers, 2 thunderers, and 2 siege, plus any leftover miners for scouting purposes... sometimes a couple gyrocopters though I honestly have NO idea what they are good at, but it's NOT chasing down routing units.

In short, I can NEVER wipe out ANY of the enemy units... so they scatter all over the map and regroup constantly. My dwarves take too long to regroup, and get picked off by regrouped wolf cavs.

Ugh....

[Gray Riders]

What difficulty are you playing on? The AI units get some fairly sizable combat buffs on Very Hard or above (probably some on Hard, as well, but they're much smaller).

From your description, though...your army has way too few combat units. Those many slots given to Miners is very ineffective. You need more front liners.

Also, has it gotten to the point where the enemy has multiple Black Orc units? They start with one, but once it's dead you won't see any more for a while.

(By the way, did I miss a recent patch nerfing Hammerers or buffing Black Orcs? When I ran tests before on V. Hard Hammerers could beat them, but now they always lose and struggle on Hard.)

Edit: Gyrocopters are almost a sort of a cavalry unit, they don't run enemies down but they can work as a sort of hammer since they cam bomb/shoot the enemy during hand to hand combat to get them to rout. The Gyrobomber in particular has a very strong payload (because it has so many bombs--depending on unit size the regular Gyrocopters can do more damage per bombing run).

[Milk]

Цитата допису kyroshill:

I have tried all of these strats...... my forces break too easily and scatter... and of course are too slow to get back into position after rallying.

I focus fire my quarrellers on their cav..... they rout quickly and run away..... for a minute. I shift targets, rinse and repeat. In the meantime my infantry routs and I lose (not all the time, but even if I outnumber the orcs, I cannot rely on wins)

The other thing is that gobbo missile cav NEVER EVER runs out of ammo...... I just spent 20 minutes in a siege being shot at by 6 missile cav units..... at battle end, they ALL had half ammo left

In short, 1 Black Orc unit will rout 5 of my dwarves even in 5 v 1 combat , fully surrounded, all day, every day.... and don't talk to me about bringing in a Lord..... that ♥♥♥♥♥♥ will run or die half the time.... I feel like I have to guard my most valuable weapon instead of using it..... even when I do crash him in to low leadership gobbos..... it takes them ages to rout, in the meantime I lose 1/4 hp....

I normally try to have 5-7 infantry (usually shielded), 4 quarrellers, 2 thunderers, and 2 siege, plus any leftover miners for scouting purposes... sometimes a couple gyrocopters though I honestly have NO idea what they are good at, but it's NOT chasing down routing units.

In short, I can NEVER wipe out ANY of the enemy units... so they scatter all over the map and regroup constantly. My dwarves take too long to regroup, and get picked off by regrouped wolf cavs.

Ugh....

If you have just basic dwarven warriors w/shields and quarrelers, the cav should be no problem. Again, the arrows do essentially nothing from the front.

You shouldn't be having so much trouble with black orcs. At best they're slightly superior to dwarf warriors.

[Gray Riders]

Цитата допису Angry Floof:

You shouldn't be having so much trouble with black orcs. At best they're slightly superior to dwarf warriors.

You're seriously underestimating Black Orcs. They're better than Longbeards by a mile and on a similar level to Hammerers (much more durable, worse attacking power).

[harleyquinrazer]

Цитата допису Gray Riders:

Цитата допису Angry Floof:

You shouldn't be having so much trouble with black orcs. At best they're slightly superior to dwarf warriors.

You're seriously underestimating Black Orcs. They're better than Longbeards by a mile and on a similar level to Hammerers (much more durable, worse attacking power).

Standard Longbeards outlast Black Orcs because of the defence value while the Great Weapons variant will ensure one side breaks and runs after heavy casualties on both sides.

Based on the stats alone, hammerers should easily beat black orcs. Did something change in the latest version?

[Milk]

Цитата допису Gray Riders:

Цитата допису Angry Floof:

You shouldn't be having so much trouble with black orcs. At best they're slightly superior to dwarf warriors.

You're seriously underestimating Black Orcs. They're better than Longbeards by a mile and on a similar level to Hammerers (much more durable, worse attacking power).

I'm just basing it on how my black orcs fared against them. They kill a lot, but they also die a lot to the dwarves. So they're what I would consider "equals" to dwarf melee units.

Either way, they die quickly to dwarf ranged units so there's that.

[Gray Riders]

I decided to run a bunch of tests with Black Orcs VS various Dwarf infantry after reading other people's responses here, one-on-one in flat terrain. I am not using any unit mods.

Here were the results. I controled the Black Orcs for most of the tests (I'll explain where I do not), and simply order them to charge the enemy as soon as the battle starts. I don't even adjust their rank depth.

VS Longbeards (shield)
Normal--Black Orcs win, 72 to 11
Hard--Black Orcs win, 77 to 8
Very Hard--Black Orcs win, 71 to 12

VS Longbeard (Great Weapons)
Very Hard--Black Orcs win, 77 to 30

So, not the same result others are reporting with standard Longbeards outlasting Black Orcs. The Black Orcs took decent damage against the Great Weapon longbeards, but even with the AIs Very Hard bonuses they were in control every second of the match.

VS Ironbreakers
Very Hard--Ironbreakers win, 34 to 18
Hard--Ironbreakers win, 50 to 34

Player as Ironbreakers (For comparison)
For the first test I deploy in starting formation, moving to where terrain will be even, and letting the orcs charge:
Hard--Black Orcs win, 87 to 53
There's clearly something wrong with how I handled this matchup. I just had the Black Orcs run forward in every test, since that's also what the AI does, but I realize I used the Ironbreakers passively, which the AI does NOT. Also, I believe the AI did change the unit depth. So here, I decide to spread the Ironbreakers out to four deep, give them fire orders when the Black Orcs try to curve to the flank, and order them to attack once the lines meet:
Hard--Ironbreakers win, 59 to 33
Better results than the AI got on the same difficulty. I hadn't realize before the Ironbreakers would fight more passively if not told to counterattack once the lines meet.

Цитата допису Angry Floof:

I'm just basing it on how my black orcs fared against them. They kill a lot, but they also die a lot to the dwarves. So they're what I would consider "equals" to dwarf melee units.

Either way, they die quickly to dwarf ranged units so there's that.

What difficulty? AI gets fairly large buffs on Very Hard, so your Black Orcs were weakened if you were on that. Enemy dwarf warriors seem nearly unbreakable on Very Hard compared to your own on the same setting.

Ranged focus fire is surely the way to go against them, though. You may need several Quarellers per Black Orc (since they have very high armor and tons of health) to get results, though. Thunderers work better if they can get firing angles.

[kyroshill]

Definitely learning a lot here!

I am just very frustrated with how to deal with the cav..... they break easily but run all over the map and rally..... actually ENDING combat is nigh on impossible as there will ALWAYS be a unit somewhere on the map.

And didn't I read that once the Lord is no longer on the field, units won't rally? Because I don't see any truth to that. Non melee Lords I can run off if the first few minutes, but then the battles drags on for another 20 minutes since I can't finish off enemy units.

In every case, when they rout, they only run out of range then rally and return. After 3 or 4 routs maybe, they finally go shattered and can be ignored. Otherwise if I want to eliminate the unit, I have to dedicate to unit to follow the routed eney all the way to the border... which in essence routs my unit as well, since they aren't involved in combat.

Missile units are the worst.... if I ignore them, they slaughter my infantry endlessly (since they rarely run out of ammo), if I chase them down, again I have permananently lost a unit, since the enemy will run forever, and the moment I stop chasing them, the arrows come raining down.

I really wish I could find a good replay of some other's battles so I can try to figure what I am doing wrong.

Цитата допису Gray Riders:

What difficulty are you playing on?

...your army has way too few combat units. Those many slots given to Miners is very ineffective. You need more front liners.

Playing on Normal

Thorgrim starts with a Miner, and I like to use them to hack gates since they are faster than any other early game option for doing so. Otherwise it's all front liners, the Hammers that the High King gets and quarellers/siege. Only once I have I played deep enough for Irondrakes.... they seemed like more flash than substance for the price as well.

[Kaia]

The bottom line is that cavalry really aren't big of a deal for dwarves. The problem is either your composition or your deployment.

The first thing to understand about dwarves is they're slow as ♥♥♥♥. You need to defend in depth. A long thin line will be easily broken.

Early on, you'll do well with 4-6 units of warriors with shields, 6-8 quarellers and a single grudgethrower (this is to snipe out hostile artillery, since you lack options to counter it otherwise, and force armies to advance on you even when they're defending, allowing you to fight a defensive battle). Use either a thane or some longbeards to bolster morale wherever your general isn't and get some runesmiths asap. Where possible, give the longbeards great weapons until you can afford hammerers because you'll need some AP options when the slugging match with other heavy infantry doesn't favour you.

The defensive formation is a three sided box - and if you're in the underway for your battles you can usually block the entire width of the battlefield.

    W W W W 
  W Q Q Q Q W
    Q Q Q Q
    1 2 3 4

Cavalry will move for your exposed flanks, keep your quarellers relatively deep - four to five ranks, they will all fire if they're in range and their arc of ideal fire will be much wider, meaning less regiment wheeling, less disruption in your formation and you'll need fewer warriors to hold the front, allowing for deeper ranks there (and fewer cavalry/monster charges breaking through) and more flexibility with your wing units.

Focus your fire with your quarrelers - group them as i've numbered above, in columns rather than rows. This again is about maximising the amount of time they spend shooting. Two to four units advancing on you should be shot to ribbons before they ever reach your lines. This is much better than lightly damaging lots of units. They'll have fewer troops, meaning you can get some of your free regiments to pile on exposed flanks and the morale penalties for routing allies will mount up.

The warriors on the wings stay there unless there is a compelling reason to move them. These reasons include cavalry moving onto the flank, in which case you reorient the warriors to block them, or a front line unit is taking heavy casualties or suffering exhaustion and needs a breather. Then, swap them out.

Built like this there's very little you can't deal with. As the game advances, replace two of the warrior units with longbeards for greater durability and consider swapping two of the quarrelers out for thunderers to use for countering high value high armor targets like lords, black orcs, arachnaroks etc.

Late game you can consider ironbreakers, since the econ will generally permit it. I don't think they're cost effective in campaign but you're usually looking at 'best 20 stack you can afford' so its moot point. They're not required, but their ability to hold the line is unparallelled.

Orcs have shoddy morale, but they rally a lot. So as others have said, stick your entire army on guard mode to keep them from chasing things down and let them break on your shield wall. As units return from routing, greet them with hails of quarrels that send them running again and keep your lines well ordered.

This is how you Dwarf.

[Kaia]

The other note is not to panic when quarellers end up in melee. They can take care of themselves. Send in support and pull them out so they can get back to what they're good at - shooting things - but its not a crisis moment.

[kyroshill]

Yeah I don't know... it's clear I am playing an entirely different game than the rest of you.... I just played a battle where I had 17 standard infantry units, 7 quarrellers, 3 Great weapons dwarves, Hammerers, and a grudge thrower (Thorgrim's army plus Iron Rock garrison) against Grimgor, his cav units, a Greenie hero, and Shifty (Level 1 wiz replacement for Azhag, whom I killed prior turn) and his few badly bloodied gobbo spears.

My dwarves stood proudly at the top of the highest hill and lost..... badly, and since it was a settlement defense battle.... we all die..... game over

The trouble with having all my units in the same area is when one routs, it infects all the rest of my units and they rout in winning engagements.

Цитата допису Kaia:

The other note is not to panic when quarellers end up in melee. They can take care of themselves. Send in support and pull them out so they can get back to what they're good at - shooting things - but its not a crisis moment.

Once again.... I am playing a different game.... quarrellers rout in a split second when hit by cav - they are also the units most likely to be obliterated on the field