Pike formation all wrong.

[Sheytanaslan]

I suggest you consult with Medieval historians, etc and understand how to display a pike formation in game. You have it all wrong in the intro. Pikes dont use a loose formation, it renders them ineffective.

[bidithal]

Escrito originalmente por Sheytanaslan:

How could I post a video from warhammer? Since the content dosnt exist? Do you want me to post a lets play from SOTHR or another one of the early games that display dense formations? Here you go! And no all pole arm formations have one purpose, to use the length of the weapon is dense formations to aid each other in combat to defeat opponents either mounted, or using weapons of shorter length.
https://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video;_ylt=AwrTcXlCGhVWYhUANL6JzbkF?p=shadow of the horned rat&fr=sfp&fr2=p%3As%2Cv%3Ai%2Cm%3Apivot#action=view&id=73&vid=dfcf8b72a2615d99fe5e178aae80a68d

halbreds are not your typical pike as has already been mentioned to you, they act more like an axe with it having 3 methods of attack the head is very heavy stopping it being used in a usual pike formation. They were mainly used by swinging to punch through heavy armour and twisted to use the hook on the rear to desaddle the knight or catch a horses leg/hoof. If you are going to comment at least know a little of what you are talking about , and if someone corrects you try listening and learning instead of argueing and make yourself look like a ingorant simpleton

[bidithal]

Escrito originalmente por Jemmapellemma:

Escrito originalmente por GraveDigger:

@0:55 halberdier unit in lose formation and @6:15 they still are in lose formation awaiting the enemy charge. @6:30 there are also pike/spear troops who are also not really using any kind of formation


https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=44&v=ZKPw86ivR7A

I have to agree with OP this use of polearms looks rather silly.

So regardless of their subjectively looking "silly", regardless of the 'historical context' (which, as pointed out, is irrelevant considering this is fantasy and not history and these men will confront much more than horses, humans, and artillery), do we have any reason to believe that the OP understands the difference between a pike and a halberd? I have not seen evidence of this yet. Although the word "pike" is often used in English to ERRONEOUSLY refer to the entire family of European polearms, in the interest of historical accuracy we ought to not perpetuate this mistake. I have noticed an unfortunate trend over the last 10years in which many games inaccurately label "halberdiers" (or other 'poleaxe-esque' wielding infantry) as "pikemen", thereby insinuating these men are armed with pikes. A pike, by definition, is basically a long spear (riiiiight?). Ideally, the wooden pike shafts of this length were tapered (as you can see in many history museums and armories throughout Europe) because they were in fact SO LONG, that they needed to counteract the sagging in the wood caused by the length (read: mass) of the weapon itself, including a metal head (and gravity). On the end of a pike is basically a spearhead, so when you read about improvements to pike-heads do not assume they are turning them into something-else by adding extra (axe-like) blades to the side of the 'spearhead' while the shaft remains 15-25ft long - what would be the point? (pun intended)
I think we can all agree that what the historical accounts tell us about pike formations, all the way back to the implementation of the Sarissa by Philip II of Macedon, is that the prevailing idea is to: amass as many pointy sticks towards your enemy. So yes, the longer your pointy sticks are; the more bodies you can stand behind (in any formation) and still poke or stab a thing. This is the advantage of a pike. If we want to talk history then we should all be discussing how, ideally, an historically accurate pikeman would often be instructed to support the back-end of his pike between 'the earth beneath him' and his foot, while staying the shaft with his hands (as I'm sure you all know). Kind of hard to march with your foot on your weapon, yet with a 1000lbs of pedigreed warhorse charging your line you will need that extra support, unless you're ready for the beast to just 'bowl' you over like so many 'pins'. This discussion about formation seems inseparable from a discussion about physics, engineering, and weapon design.
A "pike" is not a poleaxe, halberd, voulge, bardiche, bill, fauchard, partisan, ranseur, spontoon, war scythe, or welsh hook - it is a pike. Just because other games call troops who carry these not-pikes "pikemen" does not make the weapon they wield a pike. (Rriiiight?!?)
So if what is being discussed by you, oh honorable OP, is IN FACT a pike, then please by all means, continue to argue, but if you are concerned because some men holding not-pikes were standing far enough apart to swing them, please: desist.
'What's in a name? that which we call a pike
By any other name would stand as long,
tapered, and topped with a pointy spike,
Billing a bill as a pike: is wrong.'

thank you for going into so much detail hopefully the op gets the point ;) ( pun intended)

[Xenrek]

Escrito originalmente por GraveDigger:

Escrito originalmente por Slaaneshi Psyker.:

Its Warhammer

A series in which a Dark Elves ride Raptors and Dinosours
tbh

So lets add nukes and space ships because nothing matters

WTB 40k expansion/DLC and drop heretic-cleansing fire on the dwarves from above

[Ark]

Escrito originalmente por bidithal:

Escrito originalmente por Jemmapellemma:

So regardless of their subjectively looking "silly", regardless of the 'historical context' (which, as pointed out, is irrelevant considering this is fantasy and not history and these men will confront much more than horses, humans, and artillery), do we have any reason to believe that the OP understands the difference between a pike and a halberd? I have not seen evidence of this yet. Although the word "pike" is often used in English to ERRONEOUSLY refer to the entire family of European polearms, in the interest of historical accuracy we ought to not perpetuate this mistake. I have noticed an unfortunate trend over the last 10years in which many games inaccurately label "halberdiers" (or other 'poleaxe-esque' wielding infantry) as "pikemen", thereby insinuating these men are armed with pikes. A pike, by definition, is basically a long spear (riiiiight?). Ideally, the wooden pike shafts of this length were tapered (as you can see in many history museums and armories throughout Europe) because they were in fact SO LONG, that they needed to counteract the sagging in the wood caused by the length (read: mass) of the weapon itself, including a metal head (and gravity). On the end of a pike is basically a spearhead, so when you read about improvements to pike-heads do not assume they are turning them into something-else by adding extra (axe-like) blades to the side of the 'spearhead' while the shaft remains 15-25ft long - what would be the point? (pun intended)
I think we can all agree that what the historical accounts tell us about pike formations, all the way back to the implementation of the Sarissa by Philip II of Macedon, is that the prevailing idea is to: amass as many pointy sticks towards your enemy. So yes, the longer your pointy sticks are; the more bodies you can stand behind (in any formation) and still poke or stab a thing. This is the advantage of a pike. If we want to talk history then we should all be discussing how, ideally, an historically accurate pikeman would often be instructed to support the back-end of his pike between 'the earth beneath him' and his foot, while staying the shaft with his hands (as I'm sure you all know). Kind of hard to march with your foot on your weapon, yet with a 1000lbs of pedigreed warhorse charging your line you will need that extra support, unless you're ready for the beast to just 'bowl' you over like so many 'pins'. This discussion about formation seems inseparable from a discussion about physics, engineering, and weapon design.
A "pike" is not a poleaxe, halberd, voulge, bardiche, bill, fauchard, partisan, ranseur, spontoon, war scythe, or welsh hook - it is a pike. Just because other games call troops who carry these not-pikes "pikemen" does not make the weapon they wield a pike. (Rriiiight?!?)
So if what is being discussed by you, oh honorable OP, is IN FACT a pike, then please by all means, continue to argue, but if you are concerned because some men holding not-pikes were standing far enough apart to swing them, please: desist.
'What's in a name? that which we call a pike
By any other name would stand as long,
tapered, and topped with a pointy spike,
Billing a bill as a pike: is wrong.'

thank you for going into so much detail hopefully the op gets the point ;) ( pun intended)

thank you good sir

[Bengel]

Warhammer is not taking part in the midieval ages.

[EM-10]

Escrito originalmente por Sheytanaslan:

Escrito originalmente por Archaon:

this has nothing to do with warhammer dude. if you are an adult like it sounded since you have kids get it togheter man. you are acting like a child and arguing on something that does not have anything with warhammer what Jemmapellemma did was telling you that you are wrong and stuff.

you are laughing like a child or something thinking that you are smart or something. like really get it togheter

this is fantasy so you have to understand that not everything might be real since its fantasy duuuh :P

so what if the pikes are wrong. if there will be pikes in the game at all. but its not in the trailer gameplay or anywhere in total war warhammer.

what you see is spearmen and halberds and its funny since you have still not gotten that into your head that this is fantasy so not everything is real, like you have trolls and dragons. if you are smart and use that brain and think hmm maybe its smart that they are not in like in a cluster next to each other not everyone die. like look at those massive magic that can be summoned killing everything in its path having a cluster of soldiers would kill them all in sec

but so what? its just like a minor detail out of a huge massive game with so many different creatures

So you conceed your entire effort to reply to my thread was simply to surrender by saying hey...its all fantasy who cares?
Why did you argue the point to begin with then? !!! Seems to me you decided you wanted to pick a forum fight and this is what it has devolved to.
My original point stands...people can nuance the names of the weapons used...however in general they are ALL polearms...you can it a halbred...I call it a pike...
What difference at the end of the day does it make if it appears the formations displayed dont appear LOGICAL?
Why would you persist in insisting first that I had no idea what I was talking about amd then devolved to abstractions revolving around the game? Why bother?
Why not simply say that to begin with?
As a aside...I concede this IS warhammer...where magic mushrooms fart Orcs...and were skaven love to grope and hold warp stone...I get that...I can accept that.
Anyway its be a very amusing ride here...dealing with you.

Ok. No. Stop.

Pike =/= Halberd just because they're both polearms.

That's like saying a .22 is the same as an M60 because "Gun = Gun"

A Halberd served a vastly different purpose to the Pike and was not as effective as a pike in fending off heavy cavalry charges. To fend off heavy cavalry charges, the Swiss (who used the Halberd extensively) used Pike. The Halberd was used, and stay with me here, mainly to battle Pikemen in the 14th and 15th centuries in push of pike battles. That's why it was a combination of an AXE and a spear. Yes it COULD be used to deal with horsemen, but for heavy cavalry the Swiss still used PIKEMEN, not Halberdiers.

A Halberd was typically 5-6 Feet Long

A Pike was typically 10 to 25 feet

[Harukage]

Stop feeding the troll. There is no pikes in this game, and there won't be. Unless CA will implement old Dogs of War regiments of renown as mercs, or make the free city-states of Tilea as a faction.

[Kotli]

The OP and other mistake is thinking halberd are used like pikes, this is not the case unless its against cavalry. Why because the close formation used by pikemen limits the effectiveness of the halberd. The thing is a halberd is best used when spread out a bit just like the Zweihänder sword.

Its also more of an offensive weapon than a defensive weapon. Can be see by the changing ratio of halberd to pikes as guns got better and the role of the pike/halberd was used to protect the gunners instead of pressing home the attack.

It still used though because the halberd is better if the terrain is rough enough to disrupt formations.

[SG]

Just gonna say this but there where no orks or flying griffins and magic in the medieval times either so ....yeah