alliences lore-friendly or completely free?

[Ultima Ratio Ecate II]

i personally think this.
this is a warhammer set game.
certain things are ruled by lore.
this is not a canon history total war game settled in europe. this is not a game where you can create a ucrony without any limitation. like conquer europe as scotland allied with mamaluks in med 2

total war warhammer is set in a universe where there are certain rules.
you will never seen caos warriors fighting alongside with dwarves. or lizardmen. or high elves. or the forces of the empire.
but it is possible for ogre or ork to fight with them as allies.

there 3 "factions":
-the forces of light(empire, bretonnia, high elves, dwarves,lizardmen)
-the forces of destruction(vampire counts,orcs caos in general,skaven dark elves)
-the not alligned forces(ogre and tombs kings wood elves)

between forces of the same karma side for example light races could exist an alliance.
that alliance could be temporary like empire/bretonnia,which have a long history of minor wars and brief allience. could it be permanent like the everlasting friendship between dwarves and empire.
or could be near impossible like dwarves and high elves(for the war of the beard). this could be represented as a alliance(empire/bretonnia) an unbrokable alliance(empire/dwarves) or only a permanent non aggression pact(like dwarves/high elves)
this is because empire and dwarves are allies from the founding of the empire for tousend of years. and because even if no dwarves could stand or trust an elves and viceversa both races are too weak and tired to think of another allout war like the "great war".
these are lore limitations that exist between the same karma factions.
even stronger limits are between opposite karma like elves and skaven or caos and dwarves.
it shouldn't even be possible a non aggression pact between 2 karmic opposite factions.

these are the rules of the tabletopgame. they are used for big battles or campains

i know that total war fans will found them annoying or a pain in the ass.
but you shouldn't be able to declare war on dwarves with the empire or to make an alliance with caos.
i have already seen this in third age total war where if you are good enogh you can make an alliance with sauron using the noldors. a complete non-sense. it completely ruin the immersion.

in my opinion a good way to satisfy both warhammer lore fan(like myself) and total war fan
is very simple.
complete freedom for human players faction with fair bonuses or malus in relationships. meaning that if you are caos an alliance with ork is easy, with dwarves nearly impossible but still reachable. with this you can have canon friendly realtions or complete new ones based on your game or tastes.
on the other hand heavy scripted IA behavior. meaning that is immposbbile for an empire IA controlled factions to declare war on dwarves. this will allow to avoid strange or unlikly situation where destructions forces allied with light ones or everlasting allies to start war.
with these method we can make happy lore fan that will have games without funky alliances, and total war fan that loves freedom allowing them to create whatever alliance or war they want

[Wyrm]

THIS IS A AGE OF SIGMAR ♥♥♥♥
GET THIS CANCER OUT OF HERE

[Sheytanaslan]

Originally posted by |✫SPQR✫| Consul Aemilia Digriiz:

THIS IS A AGE OF SIGMAR ♥♥♥♥
GET THIS CANCER OUT OF HERE

Eh?

[Wyrm]

Originally posted by R.I.P. Red:

Originally posted by |✫SPQR✫| Consul Aemilia Digriiz:

THIS IS A AGE OF SIGMAR ♥♥♥♥
GET THIS CANCER OUT OF HERE

+1

Originally posted by R.I.P. Red:

Originally posted by |✫SPQR✫| Consul Aemilia Digriiz:

THIS IS A AGE OF SIGMAR ♥♥♥♥
GET THIS CANCER OUT OF HERE

+1

Originally posted by R.I.P. Red:

Originally posted by |✫SPQR✫| Consul Aemilia Digriiz:

THIS IS A AGE OF SIGMAR ♥♥♥♥
GET THIS CANCER OUT OF HERE

+1

[Carson]

Originally posted by |✫SPQR✫| Consul Aemilia Digriiz:

THIS IS A AGE OF SIGMAR ♥♥♥♥
GET THIS CANCER OUT OF HERE

Yea im not a fan of AoS

[alexpoobum]

wood elves and bretonnia have fought together in lore although its very rare. Also lizardmen although part of the light side as you state dont really allie with anyone.

[Ultima Ratio Ecate II]

Originally posted by alexpoobum:

wood elves and bretonnia have fought together in lore although its very rare. Also lizardmen although part of the light side as you state dont really allie with anyone.

yeah i know. my statement was a brief example. relations between races of warhammer are pretty a mess. i point the view on the already confirmed factions or famous lore eneemity/alliance.
wood elves and bretonnia are rarerly allied against caos or orc. they are usually on non aggression pact and trade agreement. very very rarely some minor dukes try to conquer or enter athel loren and is quickly killed by wood elves. but there are not recorded major wars. bretonnian never invaded athel loren and wood elves never went out their forest to attack bretonnian land. it is a pact of mutual support and a healthy respect between the 2 kingsdom.

for lizardmen is a unique situation. they are the first of the order forces faction. they are fighting against caos from the dawn era. they were the first of the old ones creations and they were appointed with the order of reshaping the world to the end of the old ones.
even after the departure of the old ones they still try to preserve the world and to fullfill the task(written on golden plates) given them by their old ones master.
so the situation is that lizardmen are often strongly defensive attacking everyone that try to enter lustria or their city in other continents. on the other hand they don't try to conquer anything. so they will trade or cooperate with any not caos tainted race.
the only exeption is when they try to fulfill a direct order from the golden table. if in one of these tables is written to make a genocide against human for example lizardmen will make it without second thoughts. 2 famous events of this behaviuor is when the elves explorers reached lustria and where killed by lizardmen because a slaan said that thay shouldn't be there(he was referring to the fact that elves should stay in ulthuan,but the guards missinterpreted this statement) or when lord mazmundi using great magic reshaped the world accordign to a gold tablet. this act causes the destruction of most the older dwarven karak and the begin of the dwarven age of tribolation. so lizardmen are out of parameter in standard relation. the only sure thing is that they hate and fought on sight against: caos(their original task), orks(that were not part of old ones design and considerd by them as parasites) and undead(again for not beign included on old one design). so they will essentially go to war immediatly with most of destruction forces. every other faction is possible diplomacy but is very shaken and unstable and often lizardmen betray or atacck without provocation to their own goals.

[Bobsss]

orcs are neutral...

[Wyrm]

This thread is cancer
It reminds me of AoS
PLEASE
/thread
this
THREAD

[tankjr84]

Lets say youre playing as empire and the orcs come in an take a bunch of your cities, then the dwarfs come and take them back from the orcs. Is it now game over for you because you cant attack the dwarfs? Restricting that much gameplay is rediculous. If you want to stick to the lore, by all means, play the way you want to play. However, if I cant have a human-orc alliance then ♥♥♥♥ lore.

[Mr.Person]

Yea I dont care about lore. I play total war games for the freeform map conquring, not to do the same thing every time. I know its a mod but...

Third Age total war let you declare war on anyone you want, when they could have made it so its only good vs evil factions.

For example, you can be Rohan and attack Gondor, you can be High Elves and attack the Silvan Elves, or you could be Mordor and attack Isengard. Its completely up to the player on what they want to do when I am sure the modders could have easily set it to "Perma ally with factions that are in your alignment" but they didn't

And I am SO grateful for that, made my games last much longer and much more interesting

[Ultima Ratio Ecate II]

Originally posted by Agil:

orcs are neutral...

lol orcs are forces of destruction from the first edition of warhammer. they are the very essence of senseless destruction and violence. orcs attack everyone and everything for the sake of violence.

ogre are neutral. they wanted to be pay(in gold or food). this is the difference

[Ultima Ratio Ecate II]

Originally posted by tankjr84:

Lets say youre playing as empire and the orcs come in an take a bunch of your cities, then the dwarfs come and take them back from the orcs. Is it now game over for you because you cant attack the dwarfs? Restricting that much gameplay is rediculous. If you want to stick to the lore, by all means, play the way you want to play. However, if I cant have a human-orc alliance then ♥♥♥♥ lore.

you can buy back your city via diplomacy(like yu could do in medieval 2).
to be honest the event you quote(losing a city that is later taken by an ally) is the only event that i can think that is really difficult to settle.
but if the devs put back the old buy a province sistem it is not a problem.

orc human alliance.
yeah. it is something like this that shouldn't even be possible. it so against the lore that is ridiculus even to think.
it is warhammer not more. if you want complete freedom play something that has not decades of history and an already established setting


and to be clear i have already said that i agree with the complete freedom for player. so if an orc-human alliance is your aim i think that it should be done(with extreme malus in relations to deal with but still possible).
what i want to be scripted is the AI behaviour, avoiding this situation to happens when you play other factions. like playing caos and seen a dwarf-orc alliance. this is what i believe should be made.
complete freedom for human player(with care for bonus and malus in racial relations) and scripted IA.

[Ultima Ratio Ecate II]

Originally posted by Mr.Person:

Yea I dont care about lore. I play total war games for the freeform map conquring, not to do the same thing every time. I know its a mod but...

Third Age total war let you declare war on anyone you want, when they could have made it so its only good vs evil factions.

For example, you can be Rohan and attack Gondor, you can be High Elves and attack the Silvan Elves, or you could be Mordor and attack Isengard. Its completely up to the player on what they want to do when I am sure the modders could have easily set it to "Perma ally with factions that are in your alignment" but they didn't

And I am SO grateful for that, made my games last much longer and much more interesting

it is your opinion. i respect it but i don't think the same way
personally i found it really annoying when some lore allies started to war. or to allie with "evil factions". this evens were rare and in late game but when they happens they completely kill the immersion in my experience.

i have the doubt that people don't read my first post.
i said player freedom
ia scripted
using your example
it means that you(as rohan) can do what you want.
but if you are gondor rohan will not backstab you suddenly because ia can't do this. or elves will not allies themselves with sauron.

that to be clear is the situation you find in TATW mostly. mostly, because in rare case when some factions are oversized or sauron already defeated strange things like evil/good alliance start to happens. but rarely and only in late games.

[tankjr84]

Originally posted by PP | EpicSaxGuy:

Originally posted by tankjr84:

Lets say youre playing as empire and the orcs come in an take a bunch of your cities, then the dwarfs come and take them back from the orcs. Is it now game over for you because you cant attack the dwarfs? Restricting that much gameplay is rediculous. If you want to stick to the lore, by all means, play the way you want to play. However, if I cant have a human-orc alliance then ♥♥♥♥ lore.

you can buy back your city via diplomacy(like yu could do in medieval 2).
to be honest the event you quote(losing a city that is later taken by an ally) is the only event that i can think that is really difficult to settle.
but if the devs put back the old buy a province sistem it is not a problem.

orc human alliance.
yeah. it is something like this that shouldn't even be possible. it so against the lore that is ridiculus even to think.
it is warhammer not more. if you want complete freedom play something that has not decades of history and an already established setting

Thats very linear thinking, which is exactly what total war isnt about. Iv been a fan of warhammer for about 15 years and I know about the lore. If this game strictly follows that, it will be a very stale and predictable game. How many times can you play a race before you get borred out of your mind? If you have the same allies, enemies, and conquest path every campaign, what incentive do you have to play more than once?

[Ultima Ratio Ecate II]

Originally posted by tankjr84:

Originally posted by PP | EpicSaxGuy:

you can buy back your city via diplomacy(like yu could do in medieval 2).
to be honest the event you quote(losing a city that is later taken by an ally) is the only event that i can think that is really difficult to settle.
but if the devs put back the old buy a province sistem it is not a problem.

orc human alliance.
yeah. it is something like this that shouldn't even be possible. it so against the lore that is ridiculus even to think.
it is warhammer not more. if you want complete freedom play something that has not decades of history and an already established setting

Thats very linear thinking, which is exactly what total war isnt about. Iv been a fan of warhammer for about 15 years and I know about the lore. If this game strictly follows that, it will be a very stale and predictable game. How many times can you play a race before you get borred out of your mind? If you have the same allies, enemies, and conquest path every campaign, what incentive do you have to play more than once?

"stale"? warhammer is about war.
you have all the wars you want between the "dark" and "light " factions.
you can even have wars between same karma factions fe bretonnia/empire orcs/caos.
it is clear that we have diametral different opinion. i respect yours about freedom of choice( and i found it very interesting in not fantasy games like the total war series) but for warhammer i don't agree wih you. some choices must be forbidden in my opinion. like empire dwarven wars or caos empire alliances. but it is only my opinion not a law of god.
have a nice day