**Lets Talk about ROUTING**

[Spatho]

Let me start off with saying: Routing is a very important aspect and should be a very real and dangerous fixture in the game...

BUT the leadership and routing in this game is absolutely ludicrous. I will be making a lot of refrences to Medieval 2 and Shogun 2 which IMO where the last of the solid TW games i have played.

I cant help but notice every single MP match is just a rout fest. Both armies clash and fight for a time but not even halfway through the fighting units will begin routing almost immediately. Now if this was a situation where some peasants are being charged by a horde of boars, maybe, but not for the bulk force of an army. Im going to list some ideas that i want to throw in that may help with these problems and give gameplay examples to try and support this.

1) Bulk infantry units should not rout when supported by other units. If a line of swordsmen are fighting a line of orcs, on random unit in the middle should not just turn tail and run. The game treats every unit like an individual entity, realisticly YOUR unit might be withered but you have an entire army with you... even though the men rushing in behind you are of a different unit, its still the same faction and those two units should essentially be "one" entity. It doesnt make sense when 60 swordsmen who have been fighting down to 20 run away when they are in the middle of 120 more friendly units, if anything they could just merge into them, it is one unified cause.

To caviat this... once a unit routs there doesnt seem any way to raise their leadership. A desperate struggle turned into a heroic turnaround seems impossible in this game. There have been multiple occasions where my troops have WON a melee and i go to reform them to help reinforce allies/chase down enemy etc.. and some units will just break and run. What sense does it make if you have just won and reform your men into a solid line and a group of 30 just say ♥♥♥♥ it and leave. Points like that should strengthen the resolve of your men and get them ready to face what comes next.

2) UNITS SHOULD NOT ROUT NEAR THEIR KING, consequently KINGS SHOULD NOT ROUT. One huge factor in a fantasy setting is the great heroes that come and rally their troops when all seems lost. EXAMPLE: when king theoden rides out with his men in LOTR. epic battles like that would NEVER happen in this game, as your units would probably run at the sight of their shadows and the king would follow them. I havent been able to have any epic "fighting for your life" battles because my king will take 50% health and cheese it out of there. The king/heroes should be a unifying fixture that are a threat and asset to the battle instead of just really good fighters. Men seeing their king rushing into battle beside them should fill them with unbreakable courage to fight beside their king.

3) UNITS IN SIEGES SHOULD NOT ROUT IN THE CITY CENTER
This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. I played a match where we lost the wals and i reformed my men to the center to make one last stand, when the enemy approached they all just "fled" and the game ended. WTF.... where did they even rout to?? there is nowhere to go! They need to take a look at medieval 2 where units were unbreakable at the city center. This led to epic last stands with men frantically trying to fight for their lives. I played sooo many memorable sieges in medieval 2 where we managed to push back invading forces from our city center just barely. Doesnt happen in TWW

4) ELITE UNITS SHOULD "FIGHT FOR LIFE" just like in M2 once a unit, usually mid range tier and higher became totally surrounded, they entered "fighting for their life". Running away is literally not an option, there is no point to, so the men realizing they are doomed fight to the last man, this gives you a chance to send in some reinforcements and free them (epic right). tragically this doesnt happen and there is nothing you can do except watch your elite troops ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ their pants.

5) ROUTING SHOULD BE HARDER OVERALL the main thing about "routing" is your men falling back when a cause is lost. because this option is forced upon you.. there is no way to actually fall back if YOU wish to do so. The game should recognize that the player is competent enough to call a retreat if they need too, not force i upon them. Tactical retreats are impossible and usually cause even more men to rout and instant loss, even when done correctly.

Those are the 5 main points and i have some additional smaller ones here:
--I noticed once a unit routs it will run away in a random direction and come back, but they will forever be shaken and are completely useless and will re-rout before making it back to the battlefield making this mechanic useless. In M2 units would run to their king and regain resolve.

Here are some counter arguments that i thought of and i will adress some:
--What about units that cause terror? instances like that would be more effective once a unit is either surrounded or outnumbered by those types of enemies, it should not be the cause of a disciplined well managed army to just flee even if they are winning.

--You are just whining that the game is too hard! I have played M2, S2, Rome 2, Empire, and Attila. This game stands out amongst the rest as the MP has been diminished in which every game i play is just a run fest. Medieval 2 IMO had the perfect balance of leadership and moral mechanics and i dont know why they havent just followed the same.

--Routing is important though, its realistic! Exactly, it should be a very real danger for any commander, but it shouldnt be a given that every game you will try and stop your battle hardened orcs from running from a barely less than even fight and more of an epic clash where you spill each others blood not run marathons around a map.

Closing points: Routing should be in the game and a major issue. Once your army crumbles, gets surrounded, or all the leaders have been killed it could send your men into panic. It should not be done on this unit by unit basis where "oh THIS unit is slightly surrounded on one side so runs while the rest ofyour massive army next to it gets ♥♥♥♥ed". Units together should have this cohesion within them where instead of being 10 individual units more as one large one. HEROES should be able to command bravery and lead daring and epic charges and last stands while being the icon of courage. Instead all we get is a single ability that makes men slightly have more leadership for a short time.

This is supposed to be a fantasy game where in the face of great darkness, men can rally and give a desperate charge like you see in every movie/game. When the odds seem against you, a flying general atop a gryphon should be able to unite his men and send one last attempt with men screaming for sigmar and dwarves rushing in. Instead we get these lackluster fights where if you try and reform your men, random units will just run and you cant even rally your men next to their general.

Please read these arguments and tell me what you think, im eager to see some counter arguments you guys have and maybe we can have some intelligent discussion on this matter!

[DaCrazyMofo]

I read your first two points and well.... you stand up to basically the hulk while your mates are chopped to pieces and see if you don't run.

Also this is fantasy.

Also the balance in MP is no bueno, it is sorta fixed in SP with different mods.

Enjoy!

[Boink]

They made different bonuses for every race.

Non route because they are close to their king then VC/Chaos gets totally dump because they rely on fear mechanics. This also makes dwarven units that field a smaller size army morale bonuses non-existent. Also this makes the Orc armies that fields larger armies very strong.

In regards with bulk units pretty much the same as what i've said this will make the Orcs unbeatable.

If you want to play factions that don't route try VC....
Routing units (all of them) can regroup as long as they are not shattered and no units is following them.

[Spatho]

then whats the point of a king other then the fact he is strong. Take the battle of Helms Deep. Rohan knows they are ♥♥♥♥♥♥ so King Theoden gives this massive speech and charges with his remaining men in this last ditch effort, luckily they get reinforced.

That would NEVER happen in this game. Your men would rout before they reached the enemy because thats how it works. you cant have any epic anything because all it is is rout city central.

As i said in my argument units that regroup have this mechanic where their morale is stuck at shattered, if you even so much as try and march them back in the direction of the enemy they will rout before making it there. might as well not have them regroup.

for the orcs, a lot of their bulk is through goblins, which should still have low morale, for the fact they are small and weak. Im not saying bulk should be be all end all, but for a disciplined army it should be a destructive factor

[Walkerk19]

You would be frustrated with unit morale in old RTS Warhammer games. Try looking at Dark Omen, Shadow of the Horned Rat, Mark of Chaos / Battlemarch. Good chance of your unit getting routed when half men in a unit got cut down or even flanked. Yes, it's very easy to get routed in that game compared to this.

Wanna know why? All of them try to mirror tabletop mechanic.

[Spatho]

Originally posted by Walkerk19:

You would be frustrated with unit morale in old RTS Warhammer games. Try looking at Dark Omen, Shadow of the Horned Rat, Mark of Chaos / Battlemarch. Good chance of your unit getting routed when half men in a unit got cut down or even flanked. Yes, it's very easy to get routed in that game compared to this.

Wanna know why? All of them try to mirror tabletop mechanic.

This isnt the tabletop though, and shouldnt be treated as such. While it should show its source material justice it should not base gameplay aspects around it.

[FireStorm20]

I think its exactly how it works in real world: you got units holding a line, and suddenly one person from the unit runs, then 2 , then 10, then the whole unit, which can spread to other units.

Also about units routing: most units that routs will calm down at least once after a short path , so its not like you loose the unit the first time it panics.

[Boink]

I always field my king and heroes up front (except in multiplayer).

I never seen my units route even as an orc before they can reach the enemy.

If you are hanging back your lords and heroes then that must be the problem.

Yes for the orcs getting non-route mechanics that field low quality units it is absurd to see them not break because they are close to their boss or they are within a group that has numbers. When fatigue comes into play you will see your units deal less amount of damage and eventually get overwhelm because of NUMBERS.

[Spatho]

out of my experience no units that regroup ever reenter the fight. moral stays low and they will always re-rout before making it back to the battle. Also that is exactly how it should work, like in M2, but it doesnt. A unit that has reinforcing units behind and around it should not rout, essentially they are still in a winning situation, but since the game treats every unit individually because that unit has taken losses they choose to run even though their side is winning decisively

[Ninja O Burisuta]

lol i very rarely have routing issues when i play, usually because i use ranged morale drain to my advantage and rout the enemy first whilst meatshielding with my weak lines

[DeathHead]

There is a mod for stronger, but not unbreakable morale in the workshop. Sucks that it isn't in the base game as an option. Maybe leaders need stronger leadership bonuses perhaps?

The others do make good points though. If I saw 60/120 of my countrymen get devoured, killed etc by a spider the size of a large house. I might run. Especially if the only thing between me and death is a sharp stick, or a bar of sharpened metal.

[FireStorm20]

Originally posted by Spatho:

out of my experience no units that regroup ever reenter the fight. moral stays low and they will always re-rout before making it back to the battle. Also that is exactly how it should work, like in M2, but it doesnt. A unit that has reinforcing units behind and around it should not rout, essentially they are still in a winning situation, but since the game treats every unit individually because that unit has taken losses they choose to run even though their side is winning decisively

Imho thats hwo real world works. If in the middle of the battle you see 90 % of closest soldiers to you wiped out, you panic and run , not try to see whats goiong on 300 meters from you, and reason it out.

[Ninja O Burisuta]

how could you ever possibly suggest that this game should not base itself squarely off of the tabletop game it mimics nigh on every mechanic it has from... yes its a total war game, but it is a licensed warhammer title too...honestly this game seems to be less the issue than your playstyle by the sounds of it. I have had massive epic battles that were fought down to literally the last two heroes with very few units leaving the actual battle via routing.

[FireStorm20]

Well im playing as undead so cant talk about my units but on VH diff , alwys but alwys empire and Dwarf and Chaos units come back to fight after being broken at least 1 time, sometimes for elite units even 3 times (basicly you need to shatter them to get rid of them) . I remeber the freakign chaos cavalry, coming back even with 10 persons left in the unit

[DevHyfes]

Originally posted by Spatho:

then whats the point of a king other then the fact he is strong. Take the battle of Helms Deep. Rohan knows they are ♥♥♥♥♥♥ so King Theoden gives this massive speech and charges with his remaining men in this last ditch effort, luckily they get reinforced.

But Rohan's horsemen are the elite of the elite. They are lead by an experienced king-general who has spent years on the battle field. And what happens? He charges down the hill and the enemy forces route. The evil orcish general who just recently, calmly side-stepped a flying boulder and spat upon it, routes in the face of high morale, elite units. Meanwhile, inside the city, there is a "king" who is a poor leader, and whose soldiers display that leadership by breaking and running under a concerted attack.

The battle you wish to see is more or less possible in this game. Charge a bunch of Knights of the Realm or Gryphon Knights into the flanks of Ork Boys and they will start to route.

Units don't have great leadership at the start of the game. That is why many of their abilities increase leadership and the range of the leader's aura. In the VC game I am playing, my early zombies begin to melt within seconds of combat. It was only after several leadership upgrades that they could hold their own in a battle. Many people overlook these abilities and technologies because it is a somewhat invisible metric. But when you invest in your units leadership, you will see them fighting on and on. I personally have never seen my generals route- but I tend to only commit them when I know they have an escape route.

I can understand the notion that by the start of this game, your kings and generals should have high leadership, but that is the roleplaying aspect. Yours is a legendary leader up against the legendary leaders of other factions. They are all relatively equal at the start of the game, and it is how you choose to level them up that will make them a better legend than the others.

[Spatho]

Originally posted by FireStorm20:

Originally posted by Spatho:

out of my experience no units that regroup ever reenter the fight. moral stays low and they will always re-rout before making it back to the battle. Also that is exactly how it should work, like in M2, but it doesnt. A unit that has reinforcing units behind and around it should not rout, essentially they are still in a winning situation, but since the game treats every unit individually because that unit has taken losses they choose to run even though their side is winning decisively

Imho thats hwo real world works. If in the middle of the battle you see 90 % of closest soldiers to you wiped out, you panic and run , not try to see whats goiong on 300 meters from you, and reason it out.

There is where you are confused. Imagine the "Ds" are infantry and "E's are enemy...

EEEEEEEEE
DDDDDDDDD
....D.............. for example the unit with the D behind it is at 30% men and decides to rout.
that would make no sense because although his "unit" is low as a faction he is essentially with another 100% unit with him. it wouldnt make sense that "oh my men i started with are kind of dead but the rest of the army is with me im just going to run because i liked those guys"