Why is the AI so dumb? Its the same for all of these 4X games, they are useless idiots.

[Buntkreuz]

I mean, seriously. No game ive ever played in this genre can use the most crucial mechanics correct. Just take this as an example, but it is the same for any 4X game ive played, including games like Civ (any), Stellaris (Grand Strategy, still same mechanics), or Total War games.
A faction is near extinction, i offer help with telling them i would join the war so i ask to form a military group and other things so i can help them to join their war and keep them alive (vampires against empire). They refuse, although the chances are moderate and they obviously lose the war (already lost Schwarzhafen) and will go extinct after 2 rounds. What?
Same goes for trading with them. I offer so much to trade, we could both benefit alot by trading, especially amongst vampires. Our relation is good, we had the nessecary deals to do the thing and everything looks good (only moderate chance though), they refuse. Its clearly a worse deal for me, but it would strengthen us both, they still refuse rounds to come.
Next example, still vampires. I fight Tempelhof to gain control of my territory, Schwarzhafen asks me if i join them to battle them together. Sure i think, he can claim the nessecary cities for himself so he can control a complete province instead of only one city inside and so gain the option to declare policies for this province. I am nice enough to weaken the forces of Tempelhof, he just had to attack the city with literally no defenses left. He walks with his army towards it, then heads north and passes by, going for Waldenhof. Really? I mean, he conquered it, obviously. Now we both dont control any complete province as either of us controls one city of each so no one has complete control. What the actual f...? Its totally useless. Not only from a standpoint of strategy, but in literaly any way you could think these moves are the dumbest possible.
He could have gaines ressources, he could have gained rank, control over territory, two cities including a main city. He could have initiated traderoutes and get rid of a major opponent. Instead he decided to conquer a small village on the border which is ganked by dwarves and orcs all the time and lose all of these things and gain literally nothing.
Can anyone tell me why they are unable to do basic decisions in a logical way?
I mean, i dont say they have to do simulate emotional decisions, like revenge when you conquered a city from them, or just for the sake of forming an alliance only because we share the same race. I would, but i dont expect the AI to think this way. What i DO expect the AI to do, is making logical decisions, decisions which are easily a matter of numbers. Its easy to calculate the positive effects of the actions the AI should have done, instead decided to go for the worst outcome. I hope in future any smart person is able to create AI for these games that follows some basic understandable rules, especially considering that this game is focussed around exactly that. Its a major mechanic not working here or lets say, have very low quality. I expect my AI players to be able to calculate and base decisions on simple facts and also relation, i mean, its in no way a good relation when i offer 3 times as much for trade and they still refuse.

[Dracon]

NemesisZidar の投稿を引用：

I mean, seriously. No game ive ever played in this genre can use the most crucial mechanics correct. Just take this as an example, but it is the same for any 4X game ive played, including games like Civ (any), Stellaris (Grand Strategy, still same mechanics), or Total War games.
A faction is near extinction, i offer help with telling them i would join the war so i ask to form a military group and other things so i can help them to join their war and keep them alive (vampires against empire). They refuse, although the chances are moderate and they obviously lose the war (already lost Schwarzhafen) and will go extinct after 2 rounds. What?
Same goes for trading with them. I offer so much to trade, we could both benefit alot by trading, especially amongst vampires. Our relation is good, we had the nessecary deals to do the thing and everything looks good (only moderate chance though), they refuse. Its clearly a worse deal for me, but it would strengthen us both, they still refuse rounds to come.
Next example, still vampires. I fight Tempelhof to gain control of my territory, Schwarzhafen asks me if i join them to battle them together. Sure i think, he can claim the nessecary cities for himself so he can control a complete province instead of only one city inside and so gain the option to declare policies for this province. I am nice enough to weaken the forces of Tempelhof, he just had to attack the city with literally no defenses left. He walks with his army towards it, then heads north and passes by, going for Waldenhof. Really? I mean, he conquered it, obviously. Now we both dont control any complete province as either of us controls one city of each so no one has complete control. What the actual f...? Its totally useless. Not only from a standpoint of strategy, but in literaly any way you could think these moves are the dumbest possible.
He could have gaines ressources, he could have gained rank, control over territory, two cities including a main city. He could have initiated traderoutes and get rid of a major opponent. Instead he decided to conquer a small village on the border which is ganked by dwarves and orcs all the time and lose all of these things and gain literally nothing.
Can anyone tell me why they are unable to do basic decisions in a logical way?
I mean, i dont say they have to do simulate emotional decisions, like revenge when you conquered a city from them, or just for the sake of forming an alliance only because we share the same race. I would, but i dont expect the AI to think this way. What i DO expect the AI to do, is making logical decisions, decisions which are easily a matter of numbers. Its easy to calculate the positive effects of the actions the AI should have done, instead decided to go for the worst outcome. I hope in future any smart person is able to create AI for these games that follows some basic understandable rules, especially considering that this game is focussed around exactly that. Its a major mechanic not working here or lets say, have very low quality. I expect my AI players to be able to calculate and base decisions on simple facts and also relation, i mean, its in no way a good relation when i offer 3 times as much for trade and they still refuse.

No machine will ever reach a lvl of human, want to play good game with decent enemy ? Play vs human, I tell you its get emotional when someone challange you to war and you fight with all you got vs real enemy.

[Omega]

Good AI is very hard to make.

Most companies are not willing to put in the time or money to do so. It could take a team of highly skilled coders years to make a proper x4 AI.

And then that AI would only really be useful for that particular game.

[Buntkreuz]

Dracon の投稿を引用：

NemesisZidar の投稿を引用：

I mean, seriously. No game ive ever played in this genre can use the most crucial mechanics correct. Just take this as an example, but it is the same for any 4X game ive played, including games like Civ (any), Stellaris (Grand Strategy, still same mechanics), or Total War games.
A faction is near extinction, i offer help with telling them i would join the war so i ask to form a military group and other things so i can help them to join their war and keep them alive (vampires against empire). They refuse, although the chances are moderate and they obviously lose the war (already lost Schwarzhafen) and will go extinct after 2 rounds. What?
Same goes for trading with them. I offer so much to trade, we could both benefit alot by trading, especially amongst vampires. Our relation is good, we had the nessecary deals to do the thing and everything looks good (only moderate chance though), they refuse. Its clearly a worse deal for me, but it would strengthen us both, they still refuse rounds to come.
Next example, still vampires. I fight Tempelhof to gain control of my territory, Schwarzhafen asks me if i join them to battle them together. Sure i think, he can claim the nessecary cities for himself so he can control a complete province instead of only one city inside and so gain the option to declare policies for this province. I am nice enough to weaken the forces of Tempelhof, he just had to attack the city with literally no defenses left. He walks with his army towards it, then heads north and passes by, going for Waldenhof. Really? I mean, he conquered it, obviously. Now we both dont control any complete province as either of us controls one city of each so no one has complete control. What the actual f...? Its totally useless. Not only from a standpoint of strategy, but in literaly any way you could think these moves are the dumbest possible.
He could have gaines ressources, he could have gained rank, control over territory, two cities including a main city. He could have initiated traderoutes and get rid of a major opponent. Instead he decided to conquer a small village on the border which is ganked by dwarves and orcs all the time and lose all of these things and gain literally nothing.
Can anyone tell me why they are unable to do basic decisions in a logical way?
I mean, i dont say they have to do simulate emotional decisions, like revenge when you conquered a city from them, or just for the sake of forming an alliance only because we share the same race. I would, but i dont expect the AI to think this way. What i DO expect the AI to do, is making logical decisions, decisions which are easily a matter of numbers. Its easy to calculate the positive effects of the actions the AI should have done, instead decided to go for the worst outcome. I hope in future any smart person is able to create AI for these games that follows some basic understandable rules, especially considering that this game is focussed around exactly that. Its a major mechanic not working here or lets say, have very low quality. I expect my AI players to be able to calculate and base decisions on simple facts and also relation, i mean, its in no way a good relation when i offer 3 times as much for trade and they still refuse.

No machine will ever reach a lvl of human, want to play good game with decent enemy ? Play vs human, I tell you its get emotional when someone challange you to war and you fight with all you got vs real enemy.

again, thats the exact argument i made dude. I said: "I mean, i dont say they have to do simulate emotional decisions, like revenge when you conquered a city from them, or just for the sake of forming an alliance only because we share the same race. I would, but i dont expect the AI to think this way. What i DO expect the AI to do, is making logical decisions, decisions which are easily a matter of numbers. Its easy to calculate the positive effects of the actions the AI should have done, instead decided to go for the worst outcome."
You just quoted it, maybe reread what you quote first. The argument was that it is exactly nothing an AI could not do. It was a logical decision based on numbers. Not simulating emotions or anything like that.
It was a decision that was truly just numbers.
When you have the choice between these two things in such a game:

A: conquer a city with many building slots, one rare ressource to trade with others and so gain more money, gain control over a whole province you already own a city off which unlocks province policies/edicts= more power and control on the map, more exp for your general as on this big city is an enemy general which has only a few weak units under his control=no threat whatsoever, an easy win, more income due to a better developed city, no threat on the borders from other factions like the empire or orcs. A short way to reach that city (already reachable in this round) and its also not far away from the homecity you already own (you can travel from one city to the next in one round.

B: go for a weak village with no ressources, no developed buildings, only one build slot unlocked, no control over the province as its only one village and the other two are controled by a stronger faction, only small income which is alomst not noticable, the position of this village is directly between the empire, dwarves and greenskins, 2 of them are aggressive towards you, the way to reach this village is 2 rounds away, you dont gain any option to get edicts or more territory, its far away from your already owned territory (at least 2 rounds of walking from one city to the next).

The first decision clearly has the best outcome in numbers. Its in no way an emotional decision or a human like decision. If only taken 3 aspects out of this calculation and look at it, lets take "time to reach destination", "expected losses in conquering it" and "expected income with owning it". All of these three are better with choosing the first one. So it is as a short term strategy and as a long term strategy the better choice. Yet the AI cant do such a choice and instead goes for the worst one.
Which makes it an AD not an AI, as it acts artificially dumb on purpose.

[Tsuanli]

OP, it's no use. Communicating with fanboyz is like communicating with a wall of bricks. They are just as dumb as the wall.

If you want to communicate with those mindless beings you have to use the following steps:
1. Mention multiple times how much you love the game.
2. Do not use negative terms or "but" word.
3. Make it sound like you are praising the game instead of finding flaws about it.

Even if you follow those steps there are still some fanboyz who think that implementing what you ask is too expensive, time consuming or troublesome for the devs. The only thing you can do against those is to either agree with them or give up.

[Full-Metal Banana]

You would think they would design the AI to give you an epic and fun time....nope just plain annoying AI that avoid fights...even 50/50 fights woooo

[Buntkreuz]

Tsuanli の投稿を引用：

OP, it's no use. Communicating with fanboyz is like communicating with a wall of bricks. They are just as dumb as the wall.

If you want to communicate with those mindless beings you have to use the following steps:
1. Mention multiple times how much you love the game.
2. Do not use negative terms or "but" word.
3. Make it sound like you are praising the game instead of finding flaws about it.

Even if you follow those steps there are still some fanboyz who think that implementing what you ask is too expensive, time consuming or troublesome for the devs. The only thing you can do against those is to either agree with them or give up.

im a believer, so i have the hope for them, also i would like to not call people "dumb" and start a rage discussion. This mostly was a topic to just say how dumb the AI is in these games. I dont care whether they agree or not, i know im right. The Ai is literally THE issue most players have with Civ 5 and mention it as one of the first major flaws. And the AI of TW Warhammer literally acts the same way the Civ 5 AI acts. Not as funny at times, but as irrational, illogical and dumb.
No argument here can really dismantle this flaw and suddenly make it understandable and good. The AI is irrationally dumb, period. When it acts in a way where it does make a worse decision than nessecary just because some parameters are confusing it, then this AI has low quality, again period. There isnt really much to discuss and i will follow the rule 1 and say, i love the game. But mostly because i love Warhammer. The mechanics in this game though, starting with the AI are quite flawed, which doesnt make it a really good strategy game mostly. At the moment it earns the themed benefit of being a warhammer game. But maybe thats why i couldnt be hooked by older TW games, maybe they were just not good enough for me but i couldnt point on what bothered me. Now i can, but at least the warhammer theme got me hooked enough to enjoy it mostly.

[Big Boom Boom]

Because if AI is smart we all would be cowering in bunker hiding from Terminators. What's with you people wanting smart AI? That would be the end of humanity ffs.

[Shacck]

Well, the player is the enemy after all.

[Gom]

I've posted this on another thread as well but let me tell you the reality.

AI developers capable of making such advanced AI are highly-valued in the IT industry and get paid much better working for Googld etc.

The guy who's in charge of AlphaGo used to be the game developer who coded Creature AI in Black&White 1 for example.

[Buntkreuz]

Shaccck の投稿を引用：

Well, the player is the enemy after all.

not really, i mean, all factions are enemies with each other. I played a round whith dwarves while all the factions did war with each other and eliminated each other and i didnt care hiding in my mountai nwaiting for chaos to rise. The player is only one faction in a balanced setup, so when greenskins rage war against dwarves and im chaos, then i should be able to use that as an advantage, as thats what Warhammer is about. And now with the example Vampire Count, as they have problems inside their own faction, its still an easy decision to make when the AI has to choose between an easy win on a major city and adding loads of ressources to the pool or going for the weakest freaking village on the map and goes for the latter. At that point i clearly know theres a problem.

General Doge の投稿を引用：

I've posted this on another thread as well but let me tell you the reality.

AI developers capable of making such advanced AI are highly-valued in the IT industry and get paid much better working for Googld etc.

The guy who's in charge of AlphaGo used to be the game developer who coded Creature AI in Black&White 1 for example.

i know that, i also know AI development isnt easy. I mean, its hunting an utopian goal.
But what i talk about here is basic maths. Its an AI deciding between big city many ressources no losses in 1 round or small city no ressources more losses in two rounds and then going for the last thing. Thats dumb on purpose. I would accept ONE argument there, and thats if such decisions were bound to the difficulty and my ally made that dumb choice on purpose because the AI had to not be so strong.

[Vacca]

You guys honestly think that the AI is being... "held back"? Really? Oh boy...

[Shacck]

The game is centered around the player. Thats why.

[Free Luigi M.]

This is old news for Total War.
Not so much for Stellairis or other 4X games. In those I have yet to meet an instance where the AI acts evidently against its interests.

[Mojo Amok]

The AI in this game has it's strengths and weaknesses.

The diplomacy AI isn't really based on logic so much as difficulty level - it's a grey area for me as I wouldn't really put it on the list of areas where the AI is inept, but it certainly wouldn't make the 'things the AI is good at' list either.

It's kinda immersion killing, though - sure.

[Nyx]

want to know why the ai sucks well its ether they suck and get cheats or they comp stomp you into dust technology just isent at the level where there is a smart ai that can use reason and tactics to determine actions,ai today uses the values of the game to make decisions but the devs then have to nerf that or like I said the ai would comp stomp you so we get a retarded ai that gets handicaps