did handgunners have bayonets in the lore?

[Sir Snuffles]

i only ask because im a massive empire total war fan and love the idea of having a standardised empire army. with regiments of musketeer's,cavarly and artillery :D flag beaers, officers and drumms would be a plus but i have no clue if that would be "lore" friendly

[PrivateXTC]

Originally posted by Jakal in quam:

Originally posted by =PrivateXTC=:

^Axes are completely different to what we getting at. We're on about swords vs bayonets, not axes, axes are totally different.

missing the point entirely. bayonets are honestly a desperation tactic when fighting troops actually geared for close combat and only truly effective in that first defense against a charge. to top it off, imperial handguns simply aren't long enough to provide the knife on the end enough reach to make the one advantage they do have decisive. issuing a sword to all handgunners is common sense, as the sword is guarranteed to be part of core imperial training programs and will do a much better job than a hastily screwed on poker attached to the gun. i was just addressing that dwarves also had handguns, and did not posses any bayonets.

really, to answer OP directly: they did not as handguns (and training) were provided as additional support kit as deemed needed rather than being standard equipment, so all soldiers were assumed to have their standard issue sword to fight with as well as being protected by troops outfitted more for hand-to-hand.

I didn't miss the point. You talked about offering Dwarfs baoynets in place of their axes which isn't anything to do with bayonets vs swords.

And how are bayonets a desperation tactic? It's a sound and completely logical way to protect themselves as they're ranged units. Ranged units are always vulnurable in warfare.

And how is a boyonet only truly effective just in the first charge? If the charge is from cavalry history shows bayonetted line infantry in a square formation will destroy an entire unit of cavalry. If it's men charging men a bayonet acts as a stabbing sword, remaining effective the entire fight.

If in Warhammer they only use small guns and not rifles for some unknown reason then bayonets don't make sense and then neither does the Empire gun units as hand guns are not made for range, rifles are. It's an odd Warhammer lore then if all guns must be small.

[SleepyNarwhalz]

Guys lets not fight here

[PrivateXTC]

Originally posted by SleepyNarwhalz:

Guys lets not fight here

It's debating.

[Daliena]

Originally posted by =PrivateXTC=:

Originally posted by SleepyNarwhalz:

Guys lets not fight here

It's debating.

Yeah!

.. *Subtly puts bar stool down*

[SleepyNarwhalz]

Originally posted by Daliena:

Originally posted by =PrivateXTC=:

It's debating.

Yeah!

.. *Subtly puts bar stool down*

xD

[PrivateXTC]

lol. I'm just proving why his points about bayonets were wrong by using facts. But yeah, it does feel tense lol.

[Tenshin51]

I think Game workshop makes the empire somewhat 17 century army who uses pike and shot formation.

If you google about 17 century, bayonet will make guns ineffective due some bayonet will be fix.

[[KGL] Dutchie]

if anything I think bayonets make muskets/rifles look even more badass...

BUT ANYWAY... I think I found something that could end the lore-side of this discussion... I could be wrong, but the guns that the Empire's Outriders use... if you look carefully... have bayonets!!!

[NixBoxDone]

Originally posted by =PrivateXTC=:

Originally posted by Choppytehbear:

Accually, outfitting them with swords is better. 90% of the enemys they face will be engaging them in melee. I would rather have a sword than some wood and metal with a knife at the end if an ork decides to get up close and personal.

A rifle with a bayonet at the end is as effective as a sword, in fact more so as you can stab with more power because the way you can hold it.

Originally posted by Choppytehbear:

At the technological level of the Empire (roughly our 1550) bayonets weren't widely used.

Because our 1550 had steam-tanks like the Empire lol. Poor excuse. Bayonets are logical, no reason why the lore doesn't have them. If they weren't a logical thing then our ancesters wouldn't have invented them. And the Empire is clearly based around a medieval and Napoleonic style army minus the magic/fantasy.

They don't have them because the person(s) writting the lore decided they didn't. When you write a fantasy universe, you get to decide who gets what, what the technology level is like and how the people within it behave.

Gunners don't have bayonets for the same reason greenskins have no chainsaws - because the writers said they don't.

That's not illogical, or if it is, then it is illogical because the entire universe is.

[Reverend Belial]

Originally posted by Dutchie:

if anything I think bayonets make muskets/rifles look even more badass...

BUT ANYWAY... I think I found something that could end the lore-side of this discussion... I could be wrong, but the guns that the Empire's Outriders use... if you look carefully... have bayonets!!!

Those are also larger, more advanced, experimental weapons rather than the fairly primitive harquebuses used by handgunners.

[Jakal, Lady kisser]

Originally posted by =PrivateXTC=:

And how are bayonets a desperation tactic? It's a sound and completely logical way to protect themselves as they're ranged units. Ranged units are always vulnurable in warfare.

hence the swords

And how is a boyonet only truly effective just in the first charge? If the charge is from cavalry history shows bayonetted line infantry in a square formation will destroy an entire unit of cavalry. If it's men charging men a bayonet acts as a stabbing sword, remaining effective the entire fight.

citation needed on that first bit, that's contrary to what i've read.
as far as the "stabbing sword" nonsense, trying to stab a guy armed with a shield and sword when you have a bayonet is a massave disadvantage as your weapon isn't even designed to be used in hand to had and they have considrable options to parry or deflect your thrust and close inside of your reach. it's a halfspear far more than a "stabbing sword" and one with terrible weight and balance issues.

If in Warhammer they only use small guns and not rifles for some unknown reason then bayonets don't make sense and then neither does the Empire gun units as hand guns are not made for range, rifles are. It's an odd Warhammer lore then if all guns must be small.

handguns are not rifles, they're flintlock guns. dwarf handguns are more advanced, but maintain fairly short barrels because dwarfs. empire engineers learned how to make guns from the dwarfs but a lot of it is just them trusting what the dwarfs told them rather then them understanding the underlying science. pretty much all gunpowder in the empire is made or overseen by expatriete dwarfs. in short, the empire has guns because more technnologically advanced people are helping them. (yes this goes for the steam tanks, a dwarf engineer was thrown out of the engineer's guild for wanting to try it so he's built them in the empire as a proving run.)

[Jakal, Lady kisser]

Originally posted by Reverend Belial:

Originally posted by Dutchie:

if anything I think bayonets make muskets/rifles look even more badass...

BUT ANYWAY... I think I found something that could end the lore-side of this discussion... I could be wrong, but the guns that the Empire's Outriders use... if you look carefully... have bayonets!!!

Those are also larger, more advanced, experimental weapons rather than the fairly primitive harquebuses used by handgunners.

hochland long rifles, i think? the only true rifles in the empire. actually useful on them because they're well made enout to handle a bit of rough use and still fire and long enough they can give a good poking from the saddle. they're about ten times more expensive as the regular handguns in the RPG and the outriders are an elite unit.

[PrivateXTC]

Originally posted by Jakal in quam:

They don't have them because the person(s) writting the lore decided they didn't. When you write a fantasy universe, you get to decide who gets what, what the technology level is like and how the people within it behave.

Gunners don't have bayonets for the same reason greenskins have no chainsaws - because the writers said they don't.

That's not illogical, or if it is, then it is illogical because the entire universe is.

Then I want words with the writer, so does Napoleon. Unless it's the same writer who destroyed the Warhammer universe this is based in then I need no words as doing that ruins Warhammer lore for me and shows the writer as illogical. When playing I always have in the back of mind that this universe in this game doesn't exist anymore and it sucks really.

Originally posted by Jakal in quam:

Originally posted by =PrivateXTC=:

And how are bayonets a desperation tactic? It's a sound and completely logical way to protect themselves as they're ranged units. Ranged units are always vulnurable in warfare.

hence the swords

And how is a boyonet only truly effective just in the first charge? If the charge is from cavalry history shows bayonetted line infantry in a square formation will destroy an entire unit of cavalry. If it's men charging men a bayonet acts as a stabbing sword, remaining effective the entire fight.

citation needed on that first bit, that's contrary to what i've read.
as far as the "stabbing sword" nonsense, trying to stab a guy armed with a shield and sword when you have a bayonet is a massave disadvantage as your weapon isn't even designed to be used in hand to had and they have considrable options to parry or deflect your thrust and close inside of your reach. it's a halfspear far more than a "stabbing sword" and one with terrible weight and balance issues.

If in Warhammer they only use small guns and not rifles for some unknown reason then bayonets don't make sense and then neither does the Empire gun units as hand guns are not made for range, rifles are. It's an odd Warhammer lore then if all guns must be small.

handguns are not rifles, they're flintlock guns. dwarf handguns are more advanced, but maintain fairly short barrels because dwarfs. empire engineers learned how to make guns from the dwarfs but a lot of it is just them trusting what the dwarfs told them rather then them understanding the underlying science. pretty much all gunpowder in the empire is made or overseen by expatriete dwarfs. in short, the empire has guns because more technnologically advanced people are helping them. (yes this goes for the steam tanks, a dwarf engineer was thrown out of the engineer's guild for wanting to try it so he's built them in the empire as a proving run.)

But bayonets...lol, I can't argue no more, I get too tense wehn talking about historic warfare. I understand what you're saying though and if short guns are lore then that's cool too.

You just bought shields into our bayonet vs sword equation. That doesn't count as it's not fair lol.

[Reverend Belial]

Originally posted by Jakal in quam:

Originally posted by Reverend Belial:

Those are also larger, more advanced, experimental weapons rather than the fairly primitive harquebuses used by handgunners.

hochland long rifles, i think? the only true rifles in the empire. actually useful on them because they're well made enout to handle a bit of rough use and still fire and long enough they can give a good poking from the saddle. they're about ten times more expensive as the regular handguns in the RPG and the outriders are an elite unit.

Repeater Handguns. Hochland Long Rifles are sniper muskets about as long as a man is tall.

Originally posted by Jakal in quam:

(yes this goes for the steam tanks, a dwarf engineer was thrown out of the engineer's guild for wanting to try it so he's built them in the empire as a proving run.)

This is blatantly untrue. Steam Tanks were designed and built by Leonardo of Miragliano, a Tilean engineer who was one of the founding members of the Imperial Gunnery School. No Dwarfs were involved in the production of the tanks, and even they have no idea how to replicate them.

Also for the earlier part that I'm too lazy to go back and quote again, the Empire Engineers most definitely do understand the science of the guns they build. The Dwarfs may have introduced gunpowerder to them, but the Humans took that innovation and ran with it. Everything from Repeaters, to Volley Guns, to Helstorms, to Long Rifles are all human inventions.

[Daliena]

One can wonder how much of the 'even dwarves don't know how to replicate the steam tank design' is the Engineer's Guild just harrumphing into their beards and declaring that those umgi couldn't possibly come up with anything worth learning from anyway..