Mod Request: Remove obstruction for ranged infantry

[Deceiver9811]

As the title says, I would like a mod that simply removes obstruction from ranged infantry, if it's not possible to be specific, then all ranged units (Artillery included).

Both me and a friend have noticed that the obstruction mechanic seems to only be relevant when it's inconvenient for it to be so, and doesn't actually stop our units from firing directly on our own troops. In fact, in a recent custom battle my artillery launched their innitial volley on my own front line just before the armies clashed, and in a campaign battle one of my archers fired at a fleeing group of Spearmen with such poor accuracy they crippled one on my own melee units that was chasing them (It looked as though it was intentional, an act of treacherous sabotage). So the obstruction mechanic of your own infantry being in the line of fire isn't actually doing a good job of preventing friendly fire, it's just making it more annoying to try and get your ranged units to actually do their job.

This is mostly a problem with ranged infantry because of their low firing arc compared to artillery like the Empires Mortars, however the Dwarf Grudge thrower has a relatively low firing arc and can be victim to this as well, which is even more frustrating than 2 units of quarrelers being insubordinate. That said, I am not sure how cannons are affected, I have not specifically tested them, and I honestly would rather the Hellfire Rocket Battery not fire at such low angles.

[SQW]

Each unit has a hit box size relative to the size of the model. Your missile/arty with low trajectory like thunder or organ will NOT fire at the target if LOS is blocked by your own troops. However, if an enemy figuretively pop its head in view (of if it's a large unit like troll or giant) for long enough, your troop WILL fire. However, due to imperfect accuracy of the projectives, friendly fire thus occurs. That's also why only a few of your missile troop model in a unit will shoot into a crowded melee from 2nd row doing minial damage but if you flank the enemy, every model in your unit will be blasting away.

This is for balance reasons. If I can fire my thunderers or organ gun with an arc like the crossbows on flat terrains, I'd be wrecking any armoured avances safe from back row. If you want to avoid FFs, shift your range units to the flank once melee units are locked in place. Or aim at their range units. Or aim at their Large units. Or use any inclines on the map. Or stagger your front line like a checker board so your range units have a side angle to shoot.

The LOS and model-to-model interaction is pretty advanced actually. Don't play it like Starcraft. =P

[Deceiver9811]

Friendly fire is not the issue I have, and I am not asking for it to be removed.

I have 2 crossbowmen who can fire merrily into the enemy ranks as the armies march forward. After a clash 1 crossbowman is able to continue firing while the other is not. The reason being the 2nd unit is closer to target, so their firing arc is just low enough to consider my own infantry as blocking their shots, even though the unit of crossbowmen that ARE firing, are still hitting my own infantry. So why is my other unit not firing? Is it somehow going to do more damage to my target than the group that IS firing? No, if anything more shots will land on my own units, but I don't care, I want them to fire on hostile targets unless I order them otherwise. Same with artillery, damned be the consequences of a volley landing directly ontop of my defending line, if I give the order, I am accepting the consequences of friendly fire.

[BigBadB]

Originally posted by Deceiver9811:

Friendly fire is not the issue I have, and I am not asking for it to be removed.

I have 2 crossbowmen who can fire merrily into the enemy ranks as the armies march forward. After a clash 1 crossbowman is able to continue firing while the other is not. The reason being the 2nd unit is closer to target, so their firing arc is just low enough to consider my own infantry as blocking their shots, even though the unit of crossbowmen that ARE firing, are still hitting my own infantry. So why is my other unit not firing? Is it somehow going to do more damage to my target than the group that IS firing? No, if anything more shots will land on my own units, but I don't care, I want them to fire on hostile targets unless I order them otherwise. Same with artillery, damned be the consequences of a volley landing directly ontop of my defending line, if I give the order, I am accepting the consequences of friendly fire.

You can order artillery to fire at a ground location by ALT+right-click.

Ranged infantry won't deliberately engage in friendly fire, though, so if they can't fire from their current location, move them. :)

[Deceiver9811]

I am aware I can order my artillery, most of the time with artillery it isn't an issue, in fact the Grudge thrower is the only one that seems to have a problem with obstruction despite it being a catapult, it's supposed to have a high firing arc. This is why I stated I would like this to be infantry only if possible, though I would prefer it apply to all units if it could be made player only. I am prepared to deal with the consequences of being an awful commander, let me give my artillery ♥♥♥♥♥♥ orders to fire through my own army.

I know I can move my ranged infantry, but I don't care. If I order my archers to fire, I want them to fire regardless of how likely they are to hit my troops. Especially since this mechanic doesn't actually stop my archers from firing onto my infantry line anyway. Reminder than in my first post I mentioned a group of archers firing at some of my own infantry, while trying to hit fleeing spearmen. Literally every arrow fired landed into my own unit, so why can I not fire on units engaged with my own in melee combat? There isn't one, if they'll still happily fire into my own units as a result of their poor accuracy when not obstructed, there is no reason they shouldn't be able to fire onto my own units when they are.

[BigBadB]

Originally posted by Deceiver9811:

I am aware I can order my artillery, most of the time with artillery it isn't an issue, in fact the Grudge thrower is the only one that seems to have a problem with obstruction despite it being a catapult, it's supposed to have a high firing arc. This is why I stated I would like this to be infantry only if possible, though I would prefer it apply to all units if it could be made player only. I am prepared to deal with the consequences of being an awful commander, let me give my artillery ♥♥♥♥♥♥ orders to fire through my own army.

I know I can move my ranged infantry, but I don't care. If I order my archers to fire, I want them to fire regardless of how likely they are to hit my troops. Especially since this mechanic doesn't actually stop my archers from firing onto my infantry line anyway. Reminder than in my first post I mentioned a group of archers firing at some of my own infantry, while trying to hit fleeing spearmen. Literally every arrow fired landed into my own unit, so why can I not fire on units engaged with my own in melee combat? There isn't one, if they'll still happily fire into my own units as a result of their poor accuracy when not obstructed, there is no reason they shouldn't be able to fire onto my own units when they are.

Sorry, but I disagree. I think there's a very significant difference between 'I can see some of the enemy and so will fire at them, but some of my shots may accidentally hit friendlies' and 'I cannot even see the enemy so will deliberately shoot my own side'.

[Deceiver9811]

Where do you get "Dilerberately shoot my own side". My point was that I am willing to deal with the consequences of friendly fire, my units being too close should not interfere with their ability to fire on my targets. If you wish to use line of sight logic of "It's not that they are afraid of hitting friendlies, they literally can't even see their target", I could argue that, but first I'd like to state that it is irrelevant. This is a mod request, mods exist that break the balance of the game, and I'm sure there are mods that break the lore of the game. I would personally enjoy this game so much more if I didn't have to deal with the obstruction issue yet I do not have any experience with modding, and so I am making my request for such a mod public in the hopes someone might oblige me.

As for the actual line of sight argument, it is invalid because only MY infantry can block line of sight, the enemy target can be behind a massive wall of their own infantry, but I'll still be able to fire just fine, in fact I'll fire with even less issue because my own units won't be obstructing the target.


What I want, is to give my ranged units an order to fire, and have them follow that order even if it is to the detriment of my own army. I am willing to deal with the consequences of such terrible orders if it means my ranged units actually do their job, instead of only worrying about friendly fire when it's least convenient to do so. I find this annoying, and so does a friend of mine; we both wish for a mod to be created to fix this, or if one already exists, to be pointed to it.

[Merk]

Agree with OP

[BigBadB]

Originally posted by Deceiver9811:

What I want, is to give my ranged units an order to fire, and have them follow that order even if it is to the detriment of my own army. I am willing to deal with the consequences of such terrible orders if it means my ranged units actually do their job, instead of only worrying about friendly fire when it's least convenient to do so. I find this annoying, and so does a friend of mine; we both wish for a mod to be created to fix this, or if one already exists, to be pointed to it.

I'm sorry, I think I'm a little confused.

You want to be able to order a missile unit to fire at an enemy unit, even when doing so won't hit the enemy unit because one of your units is in the way and will get hit instead?

[Deceiver9811]

I want to give an order to my archers to fire on a target, and if my archers are in range, i want them to fire on that target. If their arrows land on my units, so be it, I gave the order i'll deal with the consequences. I also don't think they won't be able to hit their target because their accuracy isn't pinpoint. They stop firing when their line of fire is intercepted by a friendly, but the odds of their arrows following that line are slim, which is why I can still suffer from friendly fire when I'm NOT in the way of their target.

The only units who would actually be unable to hit their targets, are the rifle infantry of the Empire and Dwarves which have no firing arc

[SQW]

What you are asking is to issue target-ground command to arrow units as well as arty. That maybe possible in the projectile table.

However, if you remove obstacle blocking completely, the extra shots you'll get will just be ones that will only hit your own guys! Not sure why you want to force shoot your archers into the back of your own guys since that's ALL they can see. If they can see an enemy elbow, they'll take the shot anyway. What more do you want from them? lol

My advice is to get the better camera mod, literally put your camera on the ground level and see what your archer is seeing. Then you'll have a better understanding of the FF mechanic.

Your fleeing scenario is a little different. Because your target is running AWAY, the flight time of the arrows causes them to land on your own chasing units. Happens to me all the time which is why I don't chase anymore. That' incident is not because your missle unit is ignoring FF; it and standard battle line FF are two different situations.

[Deceiver9811]

It's not a matter of sight, because as I said only YOUR OWN units can block line of sight. If their target is behind a large clump of enemy troops, they'll still fire without issue, even if they don't have line of sight with their target. There's also the fact that obstruction can be ignored by keeping the archers far enough back that their arc of fire goes over your infantry. If it was about line of sight, moving them further back shouldn't change anything.

The only reason they cannot fire, is because the game has arbitrarily decided that it can't hit the enemy. I KNOW that my archers can still hit the enemy, I also know that they'll be more likely to hit my own units than if I moved them back, but I would so much rather they continue firing at their target.

Give me a command to fire without regard for friendlies. Or increase the firing arc of units like Archers and Crossbowmen, while increasing the travel time, so that they can fire over infantry even at shorter ranges. Ultimately I do not care how it is done, as long as the issues I have are adressed I will be a happy camper. Well, happy-er, still enjoying this game wonderfully.

[SQW]

I think you are confused on how LOS and missile works in TW:W.

Some of the models in your unit DO continue to fire into melee because the game decides these models have a LOS to some enemy models in that scrum. The rest of the models in your unit aren't firing because they can't see any enemy (of COURSE that doesn't apply if your intended target is hiding behind another stack of enemy). Test this in custom: 1 enemy lord vs 1 dwarf warrior + 1 dwarf archer. Once melee has engaged, you'll notice how often your archers shoot depend on their position. Because it takes time for the warriors to surround the lord, the number of your archer models that fire into the melee differs greatly if you shoot from behind your warrior or if you move around behind the lord's entry point that's still relatively open.

I don't see the point of having the other models to force FF - they wouldnt hit any enemies or else they would've shot already. Most people hated Attila's FF mechanic but I guess you aren't one of them =P

Moving back only works if the ground has a slight incline or when the game decides the arc is sufficent to clear the front row and that your aren't using black powder units.

[Deceiver9811]

Originally posted by SQW:

Moving back only works if the ground has a slight incline or when the game decides the arc is sufficent to clear the front row and that your aren't using black powder units.

This is my point, it has nothing to do with line of sight, because if it did, this wouldn't work. If something is obstructing your vision of Point A, moving backwards isn't going to change that fact, you're vision of Point A will still be obstructed by that same something. It has nothing to do with their ability to see the target, and everything to do with an arbitrarily drawn line of fire. If that line of fire intersects your units, the ranged unit will stop firing, even a Grudge Thrower will cease firing, regardless of how it affects their actual chances of hitting the target.

I am willing to deal with the consequences of friendly fire by allowing my units to ignore the arbitrary "Obstruction", but as I said I ultimately do not care how the mod would adress the issues i have, as long as they are adressed. As long as I can give my ranged units an order to fire and expect them to follow that order I will be happy.

Admittedly though, having rifle infantry ignore friendly fire would perhaps not be wanted, though even then only because I intend to use the mod with a friend who would absolutely, and unintentionally, allow his handgunners to publically execute his on soldiers. Also I would imagine the AI wouldn't adjust to this and do the same with their black powder infantry

[Prygheat]

Create this mod please

[Zemblanity]

Please make
very frustrated
wow