Magic - Too strong or too weak?

[Ava Sans Frontières]

So, I feel like this needs to be said. I wrote a similar comment as a response on YouTube, because let's face it: YouTubers are whiney.

People complain a lot about magic, saying that it needs to go (seriously? It's Warhammer, not Historical Total War?) or that it needs to be nerfed. Here's my take on it:

All right. Let's nerf it. Nevermind the fact that it's necessary - some would say vital, to the Vampire Counts. Then come the High Elves, Tomb Kings, Dark Elves, and so on - all rely heavily on magic. Would be fun to introduce them later, into a game that has already nerfed their main strengths, no?

And honestly, it isn't bad. Actually I feel if anything the Vampire Counts need a magic boost (They are supposed to rely on magic, not use it as a support role). Not that their spells need to be stronger, but I feel like they should have an easier time getting a higher reserve. Slightly easier, anyhow. Four, five spells is what a HUMAN spellcaster would be able to get off - vampires and necromancers do not play by the same rules, and are typically far stronger. But as it is, VC is still very much playable.

Yeah, direct damage is strong. So is it in tabletop. Or in the roleplaying rulebooks (my main). But magic is also supposed to be volatile like hell. Or send you to hell. Or give you visions of hell, as you turn into a grotesque mass of demonic entity, betraying your general and eating him alive. Magic is weak compared to how it's typically portrayed in Warhammer Fantasy.

Magic is good as it is. Sniping is legit, as it is what magic *can do*. Surprise! It's *MAGIC*. When I see a wizard, mage, witch, or sorcerer on the map - as a longtime Warhammer fan I don't go "Oh, a support" - no, I go: "♥♥♥♥ ♥♥♥♥ ♥♥♥♥, here comes the pain".

But I do feel like Accusation should only work against magic users. I mean, it's a Witch Hunter's Accusation of said person being a, well: witch. You should still be able to cast it on others, it simply just should not work. I'm not too sure about how Accusation works in tabletop figurine wargaming, but in tabletop RP, it's... Well, it's more of a social action, I suppose. Nevermind.

TL;DR: Magic is well done. Get good, I would say.

Demigryphs Knights on the other hand... Sigh.

[Hartassen]

Magic isn't well done. Spells like spirit leech, fate of bjuna, gaze of nagash, shem's burning gaze and the rest of the magic missile 250m spells (not fireballs) are extremely strong. Then you have spells like urannons thunderbolts and comet of casandora that deals zero damage, yes you read that correctly, 0 damage.

[Gom]

Demihryphs? Boom, bjuna. 1400 cost elite unit down to 20% health in one guaranteed shot.

Yeah, it's well done alright lol

[Tenshin51]

I think they make those vortex spell is too disrupt formation than do damage but it cost more magic reserve that doesn't make sense to me.

Totally agreed magic in this game is weak like playing the lord wizard in this game but it is really cool seeing those wizard lord relying on an melee specialist agent to kill a lord. Augment skill are far more better than magic skill like witch hunter ability. I think wizard are only use for support than a damage dealer.

[Lazlo]

I'd recommend the Radius mod, it helps with some of the balancing with the magic, especially spirit leech.

[SleepyNarwhalz]

Originally posted by Lazlo:

I'd recommend the Radius mod, it helps with some of the balancing with the magic, especially spirit leech.

Radious makes everything so easy though

[sffrrrom]

Originally posted by Maschinengewehr:

Originally posted by Hartassen:

Magic isn't well done. Spells like spirit leech, fate of bjuna, gaze of nagash, shem's burning gaze and the rest of the magic missile 250m spells (not fireballs) are extremely strong. Then you have spells like urannons thunderbolts and comet of casandora that deals zero damage, yes you read that correctly, 0 damage.

This.

It's poorly balanced at the moment. It's either way too powerful or just flat out useless/weak. It needs a lot of work.

This. It's not poorly implemented - the mechanics are all fine. It's poorly balanced - the spells that can "miss" like vortex and to a lesser extent comet casandora etc need a major boost. The spells that can't "miss" like spirit leech and bjuna need a moderate nerf. The way spells are obtained on the character tree should be looked at (right now melee commanders are just straight better at least in campaign) and the bonus for putting an extra pip into any given spells is hilariously bad (15% cooldown for real?).

[Queco Jones21]

I agree it needs balancing.

Direct damage spells, like all vortex spells and area of effect spells, barely kill anyone.

Hexes, like spirit leech and fate of bruja, need to be balanced a bit. They made them too powerful.

[SleepyNarwhalz]

Originally posted by Queco Jones21:

I agree it needs balancing.

Direct damage spells, like all vortex spells and area of effect spells, barely kill anyone.

Hexes, like spirit leech and fate of bruja, need to be balanced a bit. They made them too powerful.

I think the biggest problem is that magic doesn't scale with unit sizes.

[sffrrrom]

Originally posted by SleepyNarwhalz:

Originally posted by Queco Jones21:

I agree it needs balancing.

Direct damage spells, like all vortex spells and area of effect spells, barely kill anyone.

Hexes, like spirit leech and fate of bruja, need to be balanced a bit. They made them too powerful.

I think the biggest problem is that magic doesn't scale with unit sizes.

Yup, I forgot to mention that. Unit size in general is an enormous problem in TW:W. But I'm ok with that since it's the first time they've done things like magic and monstrous units, so it's really the first time they've had to deal with this problem. I expect that will be addressed fairly easily in a patch somehow - it should really just be a matter of tweaking the numbers when unit sizes get adjusted.

[Lyle]

In singleplayer, there are a few useful mods to make Magic worthwile and fun.

The main problem is unsubscribing and resubscribing all your favorite mods whenever you want to play a multiplayer game. It too much of a hassle to bother with.
Not to mention the magic in MP becomes useless without mods, except from ofcourse the single target ultimate cheese spells.

[Ava Sans Frontières]

Originally posted by Hartassen:

Magic isn't well done. Spells like spirit leech, fate of bjuna, gaze of nagash, shem's burning gaze and the rest of the magic missile 250m spells (not fireballs) are extremely strong. Then you have spells like urannons thunderbolts and comet of casandora that deals zero damage, yes you read that correctly, 0 damage.

But my point was, and is: Magic is meant to be extremely strong. It's magic. It's coincidentally also meant to be way more volatile, which I feel could balance it out. Right now, max is that your caster takes damage. In Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (I play 2nd edition), magic is strong, but it can also end with you exploding in a fiery death, taking out all your enemies, and your friends, and the local village, with you.

I do agree that stuff like Comet of Cassandora and Urannon's Thunderbolt feels weak though, that much is true.

But to nerf Spirit Leech, Shem's, Bjuna's? I'm afraid magic would then become far too weak. Again, magic is supposed to be strong, it's supposed to make you ♥♥♥♥ your pants when you see a hostile wizard.
What people have to realise is that whilst yes, Fate of Bjuna is a strong spell, it'll also deplete your full power reserve in what, 3-4 casts?

[sffrrrom]

Originally posted by avanguardiaHusaria:

Originally posted by Hartassen:

Magic isn't well done. Spells like spirit leech, fate of bjuna, gaze of nagash, shem's burning gaze and the rest of the magic missile 250m spells (not fireballs) are extremely strong. Then you have spells like urannons thunderbolts and comet of casandora that deals zero damage, yes you read that correctly, 0 damage.

But my point was, and is: Magic is meant to be extremely strong. It's magic. It's coincidentally also meant to be way more volatile, which I feel could balance it out. Right now, max is that your caster takes damage. In Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (I play 2nd edition), magic is strong, but it can also end with you exploding in a fiery death, taking out all your enemies, and your friends, and the local village, with you.

I do agree that stuff like Comet of Cassandora and Urannon's Thunderbolt feels weak though, that much is true.

But to nerf Spirit Leech, Shem's, Bjuna's? I'm afraid magic would then become far too weak. Again, magic is supposed to be strong, it's supposed to make you ♥♥♥♥ your pants when you see a hostile wizard.
What people have to realise is that whilst yes, Fate of Bjuna is a strong spell, it'll also deplete your full power reserve in what, 3-4 casts?

It still has way too much of an impact if you can get 3-4 casts off with it. The lack of volatility you point out is important though - there's no risk to using magic; even overcasting has barely any risk. The only risk involved right now is when you use a stationary or vortex spell - you might miss, thereby wasting your spell. Those simply don't do enough to compensate for that risk, while the other spells, like Bjuna, are risk free.

[Mithras]

Magic needs some work to be diffrent and intresting that being said in hte table top a signicantly apsect of the strats involve what magic magic in warhammer fantasy in one of the 4 key phases it really should have a huge impact on the tide of battle. CA just needs a way to add in the counter aspect where you could cancel the opposing wizards spells also dorfs are pretty good at not being owned by magic it is in both their crunch and fluff

[Reverend Belial]

Both. Vortexes and bombardments are WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too weak (to the point of being worthless in most cases), but magic missiles and most buffs/debuffs tend towards being a bit too strong.

[Prolific Avocado]

Are you kidding me, vortexes are so broken right now, if you place it well you can wipe out entire enemy lines. If anything I think vortexes are morebroken than the single target hero sniping spells, and they are obviously broken.

The buffs and debuffs are also really broken, it may not seem like it right now with unit stacking, but when ballance patches come around and it will promote a ballanced roster it will be a big deal. Oh you have a unit of demigryphs? They not do no damage and are slower than your swordsmen, hope you enjoyed spending all that money paying for them, while I have a single unit of inexpencive basic non shock cavalry that has increased speed, damage, charge etc.