Is there any point to wizard lords?

[TehAsianator]

I've played through the campaign as both chaos and empire and one thing I've noticed is that Lord level wizards such as Gelt or the chaos sorcerer lord don't seem any better with magic than their hero equivalents. Meanwhile mele lords are significantly better than melee heroes. Is there any point to taking a spellcaster lord over a melee lord with an attached hero wizard?

[Steeltrap]

Postat inițial de pyremind:

Is the passive heal global or doese he need to be near his troops for that to work?

Works on any unit within 30m I believe (could be 40m). It's useful if you're using flying beasties, of course, or any of the single monsters, because you can sit them near the Necro and heal them. The Necro also keeps healing your front line, too, of course.
For all of that, I prefer necro heroes and vamp lords.
And if you want a mean melee unit, the Lich King does nicely.

[Kaia]

It gets you a lord and a wizard in a single slot at a lower cost than both

[SeeingEyeSnail]

Something else Gelt, Kemmler and Azhag have going for them is that it's a lot easier in the campaign to go on and unlock your faction leader than starting with the faction leader and waiting to unlock the wizard lords.

[TehAsianator]

A lot of this discussion is about early game. What about when you're raising a new army mid or late game, and have access to all the different lords and heroes?

[Steeltrap]

Postat inițial de TehAsianator:

A lot of this discussion is about early game. What about when you're raising a new army mid or late game, and have access to all the different lords and heroes?

In that case I'd take the better combat character because the magic isn't sufficiently good to make up for it IMO and you can use a hero to do that AND give a bunch of campaign map effects if not fighting. For Chaos, for example, your warrior hero (whatever it's called) can give big increases to level of recruited troops for ANY horde in the province (but it has to be an enemy province) AND will grant experience to all units in an army every turn it's embedded. Worth having one in every stack IMO.
They can also cut recruitment costs by 15% (or is that a sorcerer?).
Clearly it's designed to keep you rolling along in enemy territory, merging damaged units and recruiting to fill any gaps as you go rather than trying to let natural replenishment do the job (that takes far too long in enemy territory).
But that's just my view.

[Lawaern]

Postat inițial de TehAsianator:

Postat inițial de The MulletMan:

Simple answer. Magic

I meant in the context of a melee lord with attached hero wizard vs wizard lord with attached melee hero

If your general is a melee character it makes your whole army more vulnerable. Especially with VC, because legendary lords aside, a melee lord can be surrounded by high tier units, sniped by magic, or routed more easily. With a caster you can recruit a melee hero for the leadership bonus to your fighting units.

When it comes to melee/caster your have another dilemma, most of the melee/caster lords aren't the best at either, meaning they can be taken out by a pure melee lord more easily, and if you keep him out of the fray you are wasting his talents.

When I play VC I generally serve Vampire Lords as melee units with caster seasoning. Their mainly my melee heroes, but they have a few passive augments + Raise dead for an insta-flank. The only major exception is Mannfred, because Mannfred's legendary gear is a bit more magicy plus he's Mannfred, he's SUPPOSED to be magic, that's his whole thing.

[Emmental]

Generally no with the exception of a Chaos Sorcerer Lord that has the infernal dominance skill (+5 melee attack for the entire army). That way you can lay off the red skills and focus more on yellow.

Gelt and Azhag are horrible for campaign play in my opinion. Every point spent on magic skills are points not being spent buffing your army (red skills). On top of everything else the lore of metal is worse than useless and the lore of death got so badly nerfed it's almost as bad, making both lords even more useless.

Wizard lords also don't get arcane conduit making them poor for more prolonged fights. A melee lord needs very little investment in yellow skills and are still very hard to kill. Buffing a wizard lords yellow skills doesn't make them less squishy they just have spells.

[[L9] Rhinopotamus]

Wurrzag is incredibly powerful, Gelt has access to his Lore of Metal which is unique for his faction, and Azhag is a melee fighter aswell and he has the Lore of Death which is unique for his faction.

Chaos Wizard Lords are only really good for their early lore of Magic, and so you don't have to waste a slot on a hero caster. They are also pretty decent in melee once you mount them on a Manticore or Chaos Dragon, but they are a lot tougher then any Empire Wizard in melee as well.

I'm still hoping we see Great Bray Shamans, Wizard Lords (Empire), Arachnarok as a mount for the Goblin Great Shaman, and Orc Great Shamans in the future, but who knows.

[[L9] Rhinopotamus]

Postat inițial de Dave:

Generally no with the exception of a Chaos Sorcerer Lord that has the infernal dominance skill (+5 melee attack for the entire army). That way you can lay off the red skills and focus more on yellow.

Gelt and Azhag are horrible for campaign play in my opinion. Every point spent on magic skills are points not being spent buffing your army (red skills). On top of everything else the lore of metal is worse than useless and the lore of death got so badly nerfed it's almost as bad, making both lords even more useless.

Wizard lords also don't get arcane conduit making them poor for more prolonged fights. A melee lord needs very little investment in yellow skills and are still very hard to kill. Buffing a wizard lords yellow skills doesn't make them less squishy they just have spells.

I actually have learned that Gelt is more powerful than Franz early game. His Greatswords are harder to get then any unit Franz starts with, and his mortor allows you to take enemy cities extremely quickly. I can normally catch Marienburg when they aren't home, and steal their port by turn 10, also with Gelt I can get Franz way quicker than I can do the reverse, normally can get a confederation with a neighbor by turn 10-15.

Azhag is a terrible start... they need to give him better units IMO. Death is okay, it's damage abilities aren't as powerful, but the stacking fear abilities can actually shatter an enemy army in a hurry which is still extremely powerful.

[DaBo81]

I'd like Wizard lords to get a discount on their spells, maybe 33%, so they are better at magic than their hero equivalents - especially since wizard lords need to pick red and blue skills in addition to their spells.

[Dawarf]

Postat inițial de DaBo81:

I'd like Wizard lords to get a discount on their spells, maybe 33%, so they are better at magic than their hero equivalents

This. Either make their spells stronger or make them cost less. Gelt is supposed to be a super powerful wizard but he is kinda meh. And it's the same with Kemmler.

[TehAsianator]

Postat inițial de Dawarf:

Postat inițial de DaBo81:

I'd like Wizard lords to get a discount on their spells, maybe 33%, so they are better at magic than their hero equivalents

This. Either make their spells stronger or make them cost less. Gelt is supposed to be a super powerful wizard but he is kinda meh. And it's the same with Kemmler.

And that's getting at the core of my question. Lord level wizards cast magic exactly the same as hero level wizards, so a melee lord with a wizard hero is going to be stronger than a wizard lord with a melee hero.

[Sultschiem]

Chaos Sorcerer Lords have better stats and in addition to having lord-abilities on top (such as Morale Boost etc.) depending on the faction they have additional options depending on whether they are generic or legendary lords.

Chaos Sorcerer Lords can ride a Chaos Dragon, making them stronger than the manticore-Wizard.

Kemmler, Gerst, Wuzzag, Malagor, Archaon and Balthazar Gelt all have their legendary items.

[StarofTanuki]

no , but no one can't decline their skin too.