Archaon the underchosen?

[steelmidnight]

I have been surfing Youtube videos, and noticed many people saying what I have been thinking...Archaon does NOT live up to his tabletop lore or abilities. I heard one video state "Archaon is decent in melee for a wizard, but is no match for Thorgrim". And yet another say "Kholek is the strongest of the Chaos Lords, hands down. Its odd that Archaon is the everchosen, as weak as he is in combat". These are quotes from the likes of big youtuber contributors (such as Heir of Carthage and Warrior of Sparta, two of the best that I highly recommend checking out) and people who sub to them, and I can point to dozens that say pretty much the same thing....Archaon is truly underwhelming (its NOT just my opinion, which is what someone once told me. Its fact....And this is an insult to the table top Archaon, who is MEGA op on the Tables. He is marked by all 4 Gods for a reason, and the only one to be given that honor in the Warhammer Fantasy universe. It is nearly impossible to take Archaon down on the table.

I realize they want to tone it down because of the whiners, but they need to get with the fact that this is asymmetrical warfare, and not a game where everything should be balanced and equal....The whole point of a fantasy strategy game revolves around this type of warfare.

That being said, Archaon needs to be buffed up and given his due, and it shouldnt be up to modders to do so. As a 28 yr player and fan of Chaos for nearly 20 of that, I am VERY disapointed with the lackluster presentation of Chao, especially Archaon himself. No wonder people new to the franchise think of Chaos as a mediocre force. If demon spider and others hadnt done the mods they did, Chaos would be boring as hell! And they should NEVER be a boring choice!!!

And I know other Chaos fans may feel the same way. And we need to speak up about it, and get them to do Archaon the stats and abilities he deserves. He should NEVER be overshadowed by another Chaos Lord, not even Kholek....And I am not even an Archaon fan (I am into Khorne myself), but a lackluster Archaon just doesnt seem right....

And the same can be said for Vlad, who should be absolutely terrifying to face (and I dont play VCs, but that , too, isnt right....) As I said, its asymmetrical warfare, so do these characters right if your going to do them.

Vlad, Archaon, and Malekith are the three most powerful melee characters in the Warhammer universe (with Grimgor and the Slayer King right behind them as close seconds) And Archaon should NEVER be considered weaker then other Lords of Chaos...So this is NOT right...But those who have only played TWW would NEVER know this about these guys.....And have a false perspective of these awesome characters.

I'd love to hear other peoples thoughts on the matter, though I will just ignore jackass trolls so dont waste your time unless you want a rational discussion

. Please list the Characters, monsters, troops, ect, you find underwhelming compared to TT, and lets send CA a list!

[Shandor]

Table top Arachon isnt that strong.. he can be beaten by most Costum Lords.. from some even with ease.
Im always happy if a Chaos player spends that much Points on Arachon if they can build some very harder ones for not even the half of his points.

He is one of the better Lords.. true.. but not a big deal really.

[Vacca]

That's mostly because in TT unique lords are always overpriced and not worth it compared to standard Lords, yeah.

[steelmidnight]

Originally posted by Shandor:

Table top Arachon isnt that strong.. he can be beaten by most Costum Lords.. from some even with ease.
Im always happy if a Chaos player spends that much Points on Arachon if they can build some very harder ones for not even the half of his points.

He is one of the better Lords.. true.. but not a big deal really.

I dont know how is is in the newest edition, I quit in 7th.

But he was as follows-
WS 10 BS5 Str 5 To 5 W 4 I10 At 5 Ld 10
He had armor with 1+ standard save 2+ ward save (eye of sherian)
And he could never take more then 1 wound in a turn for any reason....
And thats not even touching on his other items or his horse.
Archaon was an absolute TERROR on the field, matchable by only a very few.....So yeah, He is far from "not that good" and quite underpowered.

From Wiki-
Archaon is the Everchosen, the Three-Eyed King, the Lord of the End Times and the self-proclaimed supreme champion of the four Gods of Chaos who was sent to command the last, and greatest Chaos Invasion during the apocalyptic age known simply as the End Times. Out of all the Everchosen of Chaos who have assailed the world over the ages, Archaon is by far the most ruthless and perhaps the most powerful. He is an individual that shall decide the fate of entire nations, whose sword can lay waste to heroes and armies and whose unbreakable will can break and dominate those of Gods. Archaon is truly the Herald of the Apocalypse, blessed with dreadful artifacts of ancient evil, each one bestowed as a reward for accomplishing impossible trials. In his journey, he received the legendary Six Treasures of Chaos:
The Mark of Chaos: This shows the bearer to be the chosen of all four Chaos Gods. Bestows the Champion with the powers of all Four Chaos Gods.
The Armour of Morkar: Extremely resilient and dark black, this armour was worn by the first Everchosen of Chaos, the greatest warrior of his time. Only the legendary Sigmar had been able to defeat him.
The Eye of Sheerian: When mounted in the Crown of Domination, the Eye grants the bearer potent powers of prophecy and omniscience, allowing Archaon to predict the future itself. It was taken from the hoard of a massive Chaos Dragon known infamously as Flamefang.
Dorghar, Steed of the Apocalypse: A massive, daemonic horse, Dorghar was claimed at the Gates of Chaos, stolen from the palace of the Daemon Lord Agrammon. Larger than any warhorse in existence, this dreadful creature is in itself a mount worthy of a demi-god.
The Slayer of Kings: A huge blade with the raging soul of a captive greater daemon, U'zhul, bound inside it. Archaon took it from the hands of the Father of the Dragon Ogres, giving Archaon a weapon that has drunk the blood of Kings for aeons.
The Crown of Domination: A symbol of absolute authority from all the forces of Chaos. Found in the First Shrine to Chaos at the World's Edge Mountains. Archaon learned of its location from Be'lakor. Archaon fought a Bloodthirster (Greater Daemon of Khorne) single-handedly to obtain it.

In what reality is this "Mediocre"? He killed a Bloodthirster in single combat...THATS impressive, not average.

[steelmidnight]

Originally posted by Vacca:

That's mostly because in TT unique lords are always overpriced and not worth it compared to standard Lords, yeah.

Pointwise some were not worth it. But some, like Archaon, were very much worth it in large battles. (I would NEVER use him in a game of less then 3K pnts)...But this is supposed to be an adaptation of the Warhammer world. And Archaon, in the Lore as well as statwise, was a BEAST. As were Vlad, Malaketh, Grimgore. Lorewise, he should never be considered weaker then other Lords. Statwise, same...Points or no points.

Its acceptable to have people, monsters, and regiments who are lopsided in power-balance in asymmetrical warfare. Thats what people dont get, and thats what sets the great games apart from mediocre games, where everything is perfectly tuned to balance so you may as well be playing a reskin of every other faction.... I remember when the presentation came out on video for the marketing of Chaos Dragons on the TW channel, where they talked about it as if it was nigh unstoppable, advising players to run from it unless you had something to match it. In the comments were dozens of people saying "What I wouldnt give to slay such a beast" and "I hope they keep there word, I would love to fight something so powerful!"...MANY comments were like this, and are still there if you want to see what I mean. And these are followed by comments of disapointment after release, with people pointing out that they actually made the Chaos Lords WEAKER!

I LOVE this game....I want to see it skyrocket in popularity for years to come. But beleive me, that WILL NOT happen if CA continues to play it "safe". Having these things running around, and being a threat to have to face, will make more difference then most even realize on the surface.

Its those challenges, that keep people talking, making faqs, discussing tactics, ect. Without those threats, these types of games grow stale for people, and mean less discussion, less interest, and less gaming hours. And none of us want that....Which is why I am calling for people to take notice and to speak up about it.

[PrivateXTC]

CA seemed to have represented him right from a non-TT players perspective. I've never touched the TT stuff and I know from how he's represented that he's supposed to be the most powerful in Warhammer Lore.

They've balanced everything for a strategy video-game not for a TT game. The difference is a lot.

[steelmidnight]

Originally posted by =PrivateXTC=:

CA seemed to have represented him right from a non-TT players perspective. I've never touched the TT stuff and I know from how he's represented that he's supposed to be the most powerful in Warhammer Lore.

They've balanced everything for a strategy video-game not for a TT game. The difference is a lot.

Balanced games grow stale faster then an asymmetrical warfare style game. Without a doubt.

And its not like games need a perfect balance to be sucessful or a great game. The best games offer very dificult challenges. The only balance should be something powerful for every faction to have to deal with. THATS why games have "Boss fights". Because challenge means intresting. Balanced is a dull cop-out, playing it safe.... To say something is made weaker for balance is a misperception.

In TT gaming and Lore, Archaon is an uber-powered monster, which is in the hands of a player. This game should NOT misrepresent such an important facet of the lore if its going to present it.

You dont represent a lamborgini with a chevy and call it a lamborgini. Same principle here for those who know the lore of Archaon. Its weird.

[PrivateXTC]

Yeah, but with this CA are representing the Warhammer world not the TT world. Warhammer isn't just TT anymore. Archaon is already able to steamroll most of the map, so this game represents him for exactly what he is, an all-powerful nightmare to deal with.

[Perfect Femcell]

Your wrong grimgore is the most powerful close up fighter in the lore with archaon being a close 2ed.

[DaBo81]

Archie seems fine to me as he is - he has better stats than a chaos lord, plus he's a wizard and he can get 4 quest items. Kholek's obviously really good but he gets one quest item, can't cast spells and his large size makes him easier to hit with magic missiles. I'm not really bothered with what the fluff says about him as GW have a habit of getting carried away and they lost the plot in the end.

[StarofTanuki]

They will die with my Waywatcher snipe, all lord much die Hahahahahahahaha.

[StarofTanuki]

Kholek is best combat lord in tw, today i wipe 4 stack high tier vampire with kholek army only and last thing kholek can cast thunderbolt on of best megic in game.

[Emmental]

I can solo large sieges with Archeon he's a beast in single player at least.

[Sernior]

I agree with everything steelmidnight is saying here... expecially the fact that factions have to be asymmetrical in this game. We do not want to have another standard total war game want we? Do not know about you guys but after Rome 2 I haven't ever bought another total war game cause in the end they were the same ♥♥♥♥ over and over again. All the faction were "Balanced" and in the end the meta of the game becomes quite standardized for every faction... you know a bit of skirmishing -> infantry fight -> trying to flank... same ♥♥♥♥ over and over. Now I bought this game cause I had to belive that finally CA understod that they had to do something new... something more deep, but no... hehehe no obviously. they are taking the original game and what are they doing? "Balancement". It seems to me that Creative Assembly is not so Creative after all they are giving us the same product with the same gameplay same balance they do not try something new.

You talk a lot about archeon but what really disapoints me compared to the original game is Magic... limited? seriously? Generally weak with few exceptions? Come on.
And what about conjuring? Could turn a lost battle completly if you had a nice roll...
Where are the chaos wizards sitting in the back trying to attempt a conjuration?

[Dracon]

Game we play is not stricly based on end times.

[steelmidnight]

Originally posted by federignoli:

I agree with everything steelmidnight is saying here... expecially the fact that factions have to be asymmetrical in this game. We do not want to have another standard total war game want we? Do not know about you guys but after Rome 2 I haven't ever bought another total war game cause in the end they were the same ♥♥♥♥ over and over again. All the faction were "Balanced" and in the end the meta of the game becomes quite standardized for every faction... you know a bit of skirmishing -> infantry fight -> trying to flank... same ♥♥♥♥ over and over. Now I bought this game cause I had to belive that finally CA understod that they had to do something new... something more deep, but no... hehehe no obviously. they are taking the original game and what are they doing? "Balancement". It seems to me that Creative Assembly is not so Creative after all they are giving us the same product with the same gameplay same balance they do not try something new.

You talk a lot about archeon but what really disapoints me compared to the original game is Magic... limited? seriously? Generally weak with few exceptions? Come on.
And what about conjuring? Could turn a lost battle completly if you had a nice roll...
Where are the chaos wizards sitting in the back trying to attempt a conjuration?

Agreed. It really bothers me when I see groups of people talking about characters like Archaon, Vlad, and Grimgor like they are mediocre. In one video, the player said (quote) "Its only Archaon...At least it will be easy, Thank God it wasnt Kholek" (end quote). He probably IS ok as he is, but hearing things like that over and over rubs me the wrong way....These guys should NEVER be looked at as medicore, and if the majority see's them that way, they need to be fixed.

Some of these posts made me feel a little better. Thanks for the uplifting pro-chaos comments about Archie.

Maybe it isnt him...Maybe its the skills, or the elite troops, or as you say, Fed (which I TOTALLY agree with ) alot of the unimpressive magic powers....SOMETHING needs to be tweaked up and powered.

When I see a Shagoth, Giant, Griffon, Vlad, Grimgor, Chaos Dragon, or ANY of the monsters or troops that we say "Ah, ♥♥♥♥, he brought one of THOSE," or "Damn I was hoping he wasnt going to use (insert name of your favorite badass troop or leader here)". Or, "That mage is a PROBLEM! If I dont figure a way to kill him fast, I am in trouble".... On the table top, I want that same excitement and fear HERE! And I KNOW they can make it happen. CA has already impressed the hell out of me, but they can make it better, and more challenging.

I have to hand it to CA, though....SOME of this excellence of challenge IS in here, and I get moments where its a rush, and I will say this is the BEST wargame to come out in 10 years, hands down.

But we need MORE of that here. Stronger upper tier, Lords, Spells, and a way to make ALL troops useful for something even late game. I want to use my marauders in later battles, for example, but they get killed to easily by upper tier troops. Yeah, this may SEEM like I am contradiction what I want, but I am not. I want the powerful stuff scarier, and the lower stuff done in a way so that, if used right, they are effective ALL the time.

Thats why I made this post, more then anything. There is something.....Missing. I thought it was lackluster lords after hearing and reading multiple comments, but maybe its something else.

I do know, that the game would be much better (and have a LONG lifespan) if named heros, Large monsters, and elite units made you nervous to face. But I wouldnt know the first thing about identifying the issue exactly, or how to fix it.

I do know, the best games are the ones that have to have entire faqs and guides to beat this boss or that boss. And they could do that on a grand scale here with some of the stuff you can get.....

I wouldnt mind one bit though, if they pumped up elite monsters and top tier units, made them deadly scary, then put a cap on how many you could take per stack.

And maybe just slowing things down a bit would work wonders. I want the challenge to be my enemy and NOT camera control presenting a click fest with ants lol. Maybe if we had time to apreciate the battles and our stuff, rather then these 5 min arcade runs, I would apreciate my armies in a new light. I know a couple of mods do this great, but it should be in the main game and NOT modded in!

What do you guys think?