Advice for Karl Franz and Balthasar Gelt New Skill Builds and Army Comps?

[Corvus_Alt1]

Since the new patch gave these legendary lords some really nice new skills, I find myself agonizing over how best to use these new skills and build effective armies around them.

For example, now that Karl Franz has skills that can seriously buff Greatswords and Reiksguard, might it now be more optimal to eschew skills that benefit lower skilled units like Honest Steel in favor of Pistolkorps, or perhaps it's still likely that units like Halberdiers will remain staples in KF's armies in the long run?

As for Balthasar Gelt, I'm wondering if the bonuses to gunpowder units are worth picking up, and if it might be worth giving him a Luminark now that he has a skill to amplify it? Or perhaps just stick to buffing research and armor and build a more conventional army for him?

Any ideas on good army comps built with consideration for these new skill options would be appreciated.

Edit 8/23/17: So, I'm thinking of messing with Karl Franz's army composition just a smidge, particularly when it comes to his artillery. I can't decide if I should drop the Great Cannon for either another Helstorm Rocket Battery or not. What do you think?

[Malaficus Shaikan]

From my point of view the new skills arent worth it.
They only buff a small selection of units i never use.
Free company militia spamm works for most of the campaign.

[WE ARE OUT OF EGGS]

It really depends on what you want your army to focus on. Build your Lord's skill trees based on what you want your army to do. This applies to all Lords, legendary or no.

[Voxrox]

Originally posted by Malaficus Shaikan:

From my point of view the new skills arent worth it.
They only buff a small selection of units i never use.
Free company militia spamm works for most of the campaign.

Ugh, how boring is that ...

[Malaficus Shaikan]

Originally posted by Voxrox:

Originally posted by Malaficus Shaikan:

From my point of view the new skills arent worth it.
They only buff a small selection of units i never use.
Free company militia spamm works for most of the campaign.

Ugh, how boring is that ...

Efficiency is never boring :P

[DaBo81]

Gelt buffs all the gunpowder based units so that would be a good army with outriders, cannons, freecorps and musketmen - he also provides buffs to steam tanks and luminarks too if you pick those skills. That firepower would be very impressive but it would suck to get ambushed by beastmen.

[Leto]

Originally posted by Malaficus Shaikan:

Originally posted by Voxrox:

Ugh, how boring is that ...

Efficiency is never boring :P

awful...
i know its possible to finish all campaign in legendary using t1 infantry spam + broken auto resolve but that does not mean we should
meh to each his own i suppose

personnaly i like the new skill tree, gives karl some rp and flavor and enjoyed giving an army with mostly reiksguard and greatswords, as befit a true emperor

[pin]

karl can go for the -maint cost skills. -25% for all or -35% for great swords combined with great swords buffs. Although I find halbs are much easier to recruit and more versatile

Gelt I went for steam tanks special buff. 30% ward saves on steam tanks + all them armor buffs = tank companies hilariously running all over opponents. Although full missile troop buff works too. Full free company militia troops + couple of handgunners thrown in and you will feel like playing napoleon TW...against mideval opponents! lol

[Aenarion]

For me the biggest change is Majestic Enforcer, as it effectively increases the rank of all your units if you recruit smartly.

Imperial Special Forces is also very worthwhile, combined with the discount Franz gets on Reiksguard they're excellent value in his army.

The Gelt changes are interesting as I bring a lot of outriders.

[Aenarion]

Originally posted by Malaficus Shaikan:

Free company militia spamm works for most of the campaign.

I thought that until I fought my first Chaos Warrior stack (and if there's one thing you're guaranteed as Empire, it's CW stacks). They weren't joking about 'Weak Against Armour'.

[Corvus_Alt1]

Thanks for the replies everyone! Perhaps it'll be easier to redesign an existing army composition in an attempt to use some of these new skills? This is (more or less) what I had been experimenting with before the patch.

1 Karl Franz/Balthasar Gelt
1 Celestial Wizard/Empire Captain
1 Empire Captain/Warrior Priest
2 Greatswords
4 Halberdiers
1 Steam Tank
2 Reiksguard
2 Demigryph Halberds
2 Handgunners
2 Helblaster Volley Guns
1 Great Cannon
1 Helstorm Rocket Battery

A somewhat crazy setup, true, but I found it utterly hilarious at times just because there is something glorious about overwhelming artillery fire ripping apart an enemy trying to get through a checkered line of Halberdiers supported by a Steam Tank in the center.

Funny though this composition has been, it definitely could use some changes to make it better use some of these new skills. I'd appreciate any suggestions of changes I could make for either character's army.

[Locklave]

Originally posted by Malaficus Shaikan:

From my point of view the new skills arent worth it.
They only buff a small selection of units i never use.
Free company militia spamm works for most of the campaign.

Ya, I always hate it when a commander gets skills that make him better at commanding his troops...

[DarkFenix]

Karl Franz's tree is a bit mediocre. He buffs low tier infantry, mid tier cav, and greatswords (but the greatsword buff isn't amazing), so nothing special there. He buffs recruitment ranks of captains and regular units, nice early game but swiftly obsolete once his army is finished. Only the capstone of the new tree is any good, 10% damage and unbreakable is a very nice buff to his combat ability.

Gelt on the other hand, he just became a monster. I currently have 'Panzergruppe Gelt' rolling around the map annihilating everything. Steam tanks with 197 armour, a 30% ward save, and 20% bonus damage on their guns. For fire support I have a pair of luminarks, also with 20% bonus damage and 20% extra ammo. And he speeds up my research by 20%, and before tanks are available he boosts regular gunpowder units too. Gelt just single handedly brought the Empire into the 20th century.

As to builds? Anything that abuses the hell out of gunpowder units, tanks and luminarks. Anything that abuses armour for that matter (assuming you started with Gelt, you can get +22 armour to his whole stack). Panzergruppe Gelt is using 14 steam tanks, 2 luminarks, 2 mortars, and a light wizard (because nothing says "♥♥♥♥ you" like a net of amyntok in front of 14 steam tanks). I'm considering dropping the tank count a little for some handgunners, sometimes a bit of precision elimination is required.

[Hannibal Barca]

nothing has changed

[Corvus_Alt1]

Originally posted by DarkFenix:

Karl Franz's tree is a bit mediocre. He buffs low tier infantry, mid tier cav, and greatswords (but the greatsword buff isn't amazing), so nothing special there. He buffs recruitment ranks of captains and regular units, nice early game but swiftly obsolete once his army is finished. Only the capstone of the new tree is any good, 10% damage and unbreakable is a very nice buff to his combat ability.

Gelt on the other hand, he just became a monster. I currently have 'Panzergruppe Gelt' rolling around the map annihilating everything. Steam tanks with 197 armour, a 30% ward save, and 20% bonus damage on their guns. For fire support I have a pair of luminarks, also with 20% bonus damage and 20% extra ammo. And he speeds up my research by 20%, and before tanks are available he boosts regular gunpowder units too. Gelt just single handedly brought the Empire into the 20th century.

As to builds? Anything that abuses the hell out of gunpowder units, tanks and luminarks. Anything that abuses armour for that matter (assuming you started with Gelt, you can get +22 armour to his whole stack). Panzergruppe Gelt is using 14 steam tanks, 2 luminarks, 2 mortars, and a light wizard (because nothing says "♥♥♥♥ you" like a net of amyntok in front of 14 steam tanks). I'm considering dropping the tank count a little for some handgunners, sometimes a bit of precision elimination is required.

Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I'll admit that Karl Franz's tree could afford to be a little stronger. I love the Imperial Special Forces buff just because the idea of Reiksguard with Anti-Large and more Melee Attack make me giddy, and Majestic Enforcer is a really nice skill over all. I do wish that The Emperor's Men added some Melee Attack and Defense to the Greatswords, just because we already have insane Leadership buffs for the Empire as it, though the extra armor is still nice. And if only Heroic Knightly Band was stronger and more useful.

As for Gelt... yeah, definitely a beast, no question. I honestly doubt I'd ever go so far as to have a "Panzergruppe" but the idea of giving him a pair of Steam Tanks and Luminarks each is entertaining. Perhaps a line of Greatswords, Halberdiers, and Handgunners, supplemented by two Steam Tanks and two Luminarks might be more... feasible? Perhaps something like...

1 Balthasar Gelt
1 Empire Captain
2 Steam Tanks
2 Luminarks
2 Reiksguard
2 Demigryph Halberds
2 Greatswords
4 Halberdiers
4 Handgunners

That, or just drop Halberdiers altogether, embrace the madness of Pistolkorps mixed with New Formulations, and rip a million new ones in every enemy in front of me while my Greatswords just watch and focus on pinning the enemy in place?

[DarkFenix]

Handgunners shred through basically anything once you've got Pistolkorps, New Formations and their various research buffs. I think it all amounts to +34% damage, +34% ammo, and -15% reload time. Sadly Pistolkorps doesn't apply to outriders or pistoliers, but Speed of Horse gives them 10% speed and helps them stay out of trouble.

I'm half considering an army that has a bunch of outriders and pistoliers to harass the hell out of the enemy (eliminating siege weapons and cavalry), a bunch of tanks to tie up their melee when they get close, a couple of cav to mop up enemy ranged units, then the remainder being handgunners to murder everything around the tanks. I'm thinking maybe...

1 Gelt
4 Steam Tanks
2 Demigryph Knights/Reiksguard/Blazing Sun
2 Pistoliers
4 Outriders
2 Outriders (Grenade Launcher)
5 Handgunners

Very mobile, very shooty. It'd eat undead or chaos alive for sure, probably terrible against elves though. Perhaps swap in the RoR luminark somewhere, both for a powerful sniper and free net of amyntok.