Norsca War mammoth are unbalanced they need a nerf.

[anolisjd1990]

Ok Norsca is fun and all but the war mammoths are too powerfull they deal too much damage, combined whit the Norsca ability to get more powerfull as the battle goes one its too much. The ability is fine but i think there need to be more time for their levels.


i think they need to add old TW mechanics like the Lizardsmen monsters "rampage" ability that go nuts when it hits enought times and go mad and attack your troops.

The War Mammoth 11000Hp, armoured, ranged attacks,cause terror, armoured piercing, deadly charge now add the ability to get better as the battle keeps going all for the price of 2200..... its just to damn OP.

I am playing only on Single player i dont want to inmagien what multiplayer is like.

They are awesome but they NEED a nerf on the mammoth department.


UPDATE


Ok, i tried whit all races and to my surprise the one who had the hardest time were orks they just routed they dont have many anti large units and they ranged its not the best beastmen also had probelms.. Compiled whit the Norsca ability to get stronger as the battle goes its just awful.

I can finnally come to the conclusion that war mammoths are OP they have to much damn health, armoured cause terror and armoured piercing. its sick really. hell even other monstrous creatures have a hard time.

Also you guys are counting as if the Mammoth is alone, he accompanied by and army that bascially act as support for the mammoths. hell i pitted dragons againt them,Steam tanks, Giants, E.artillery, hypogrypth cavarly and all came out losing the only one who had some luck was the Arachnok and some Dwarf artillery but even them.

One problem the have also its that it causes terror, armoured,hIght healt and anti armor its just to much. dont even get me started on the RoR one....like i said before the Mammoth does not come alone when it charges combined whit the fear almost all units beging routing adn that were the rest of the army comes in moping it up and ganging up on any remaining enemy monster.

I don't care what people say about posible combinations like one has an "Anti-Mammoth army" laying around on the campaign map. its too op combined hwit the Norsca ability to get better as time goes in just 3 minutes.

[anolisjd1990]

Początkowo opublikowane przez DarkFenix:

Fight an endgame Wood Elf army, watch those mammoths disintegrate in about 4 seconds flat. Just got my ass handed to me on a silver platter by Orion in my campaign, they seem to be a natural hard counter to a monster-heavy Norscan army, with lots of long range AP and a ton of melee AP/anti-large.

Yeah i a playing Orion Now they melt kind of quickly thats true but what about ther other races? but those are only one factions what about Brettonia poor sods are getting theit butts handed.

[anolisjd1990]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Wyvern:

I think the OP was complaining about how good the mammoth is vs AI. Of course a human player will shut you down, and shut you down hard.

Początkowo opublikowane przez pin:

hmm couple of things they can consider to balance it
1. Make it go berserk after certain hp dmg or special dmg/special effects/ leadership drop
2. nerf hp, Should be less than a giant
3. raise costs. This thing is more powerful than steam tank or even shaggoths and shouldn't cost the same
4. nerf speed of armored variants. Fast speed, high HP, super high piercing area stomp dmg, WITH ARMOR is just crazy lol. Giants in comparison have much slower speed and less area charge effect to compensate. This thing can charge everywhere and break formations all day.

And no, 1 mammoth is fine. Problems arise when players bring total 3-4 and focus charge them. Almost nothing can stop it. Not infantry, they will just get stomped over. Not Demigryphs. Mammoths actually eats demis. Not Giants. These things out tank and out damage giants. as for gun lines, mammoths will just charge into them and break them almost instantly. Only thing that may counter them are javelin calv/outriders, and those need open fields and will still take too long to do the dmg before they route your main force.

1)Would make sense, but their morale is already bad for such a big+expensive unit, theyre rather easy to break with ranged fire.
2)It's a different unit than the giant that serves a vastly different purpose, and the war mammoth variant, which is the one with significantly better hp, costs 600 more, why even bother comparing the two. That's ignoring the fact that the Mammoth is much beefier and larger than the giant, so more hp makes sense.
3)Shaggoths are meh, steam tanks have ranged and stupid amoutns of armor, plus should be coming in with lore of life if the player using them knows what theyre doing. Mammoths have HP and splash+charge bonus. Their armor is potato tier and their hp falls apart incredibly quickly.
4)Slight nerf to speed would make sense, especially given that the shrine variant is slower, but their armor is still bad, their speed is meh, fast for infantry but nothing else, and it's more expensive than the giant, stop comparing the two. you can field 4 crossbows for the price of a mammoth, and they will bring it down handily.

Everything i talk is in SP i dont care about MP i never have to me the TW experiecne is about the SP and that were i base mi opinions.

And whit that being said Mammoths are supposed to be larger than Giants look at mammoths bones today and we see their size to be about the same as and elephant. this is ot a mammoth this is a Mumakill lol.

I dotn think Mammoths shoudl have armor makes no sense the shrine is on the top they dont have scales or anything. i would nerf it like this less health, no armour. i think the rest is fine since the speed can help whit the lack of armor.

[Wyvern]

Początkowo opublikowane przez anolisjd1990:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Daliena:

Mammoths are vastly less awesome when faced with actually being focused by anti-large, or god forbid ranged fire. I've seen a feral mammoth break in almost the time it took to reach melee when face with spearmen with shields and a bunch of ranged fire.

But see that what wrong one should built a speacilized army just for Mammoths that means it a little op. the pupose of elephants units in TW has been alwyas to have a deadly charge and do some damage after that they tended to die quickly in this case howerver i am noticing they last too much.

To me its more the Healht not the attack strenght.its just too tanky.

They really arent that tanky though. Their armor is completely inadequate, theyre huge and have no shields, meaning they take the full brunt of skirmish fire, which will almost always be focused on them. And they're terrible duellists, treekin and single model units hold very well against them as long as they absorb the charge properly. Also, in just a handful of tests, glade guard with hagbanes+starfires+treekin, which is not at all unlikely vs norsca, melted the mammoth AND chaos lord without a single loss. The new ROR waystalkers+treekin routed the mammoth and chaos lord with similar ease. The mammoth is only really good vs mobs, and I suspect that a faction like undead might struggle against them, but vs any combined arms its performance, at least in MP, is pretty bad.

[anolisjd1990]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Ahriman:

I've been doing some playtesting with mammoths. They're definitely tough, but their not unkillable if you use the right tools aganist them. A couple of any high tier unit with anti large can kill them (Chosen with halberds, Wildwood Rangers, Minotaurs with great weapons etc etc).

Lower tier units like Bretonnian pole arms or Empire halberds struggle big time though.

I don't play multiplayer, but I imagine mammoths will get nerfed or their price increased if people keep cheesing them.

I dont care about MP but in singleplayer like you say Empires and Brettonians have a really hard time. i did some custom battles to see and the main problem is the health.

[Wyvern]

Początkowo opublikowane przez anolisjd1990:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Ahriman:

I've been doing some playtesting with mammoths. They're definitely tough, but their not unkillable if you use the right tools aganist them. A couple of any high tier unit with anti large can kill them (Chosen with halberds, Wildwood Rangers, Minotaurs with great weapons etc etc).

Lower tier units like Bretonnian pole arms or Empire halberds struggle big time though.

I don't play multiplayer, but I imagine mammoths will get nerfed or their price increased if people keep cheesing them.

I dont care about MP but in singleplayer like you say Empires and Brettonians have a really hard time. i did some custom battles to see and the main problem is the health.

That's AI though, AI is atrocious, especially empire+brettonia AI. You should be asking for AI buffs, not mammoth nerfs. The AI was already atrocious vs plenty of other units including the arachnarok, heavy infantry(especially chosen), monsters of all sorts, it has terribad magic management+army comps etc.

[anolisjd1990]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Wyvern:

Początkowo opublikowane przez anolisjd1990:

But see that what wrong one should built a speacilized army just for Mammoths that means it a little op. the pupose of elephants units in TW has been alwyas to have a deadly charge and do some damage after that they tended to die quickly in this case howerver i am noticing they last too much.

To me its more the Healht not the attack strenght.its just too tanky.

They really arent that tanky though. Their armor is completely inadequate, theyre huge and have no shields, meaning they take the full brunt of skirmish fire, which will almost always be focused on them. And they're terrible duellists, treekin and single model units hold very well against them as long as they absorb the charge properly. Also, in just a handful of tests, glade guard with hagbanes+starfires+treekin, which is not at all unlikely vs norsca, melted the mammoth AND chaos lord without a single loss. The new ROR waystalkers+treekin routed the mammoth and chaos lord with similar ease. The mammoth is only really good vs mobs, and I suspect that a faction like undead might struggle against them, but vs any combined arms its performance, at least in MP, is pretty bad.

Like i said above i dont play SP i could care less about MP. but they just last too much againts spears for example. Elephants in battle were used to charge the line do extreme damage but as battles got longer they went beserk when they damage the trunks or limbs. to me the Mammoth should represent that way.i hope they add that in TW2 for the norscans.

I Play SP and as Single player Having 6 armies whit limited territory you cnat have in all 6 armies top tier units i am playing Wood Elves now whit Orion and i have 2 Elite armies (Orion and Durthu) full stack the rest are 16/20 stacks whit lower units Spearmen etc.

I tried whit Brettonia they are having a hard time Emprie too and like yous aid VC have lots of problems also due to lack of ranged units.

Dwarf fared better in prolonged battle but losed a lot on the charge.

[anolisjd1990]

Here what i propose lower the HP of all mammoths and make the ferals mammoths have Beserk so if they get damaged enougth they attack your line and last but not least make the Warshrine slower it got a hunk of metal on its top.

its just a little nerf it wotn affect the gameplay of Mammoths it would make them slight easier to deal whit since right now i think they have to much HP.

[Wyvern]

Początkowo opublikowane przez anolisjd1990:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Wyvern:

They really arent that tanky though. Their armor is completely inadequate, theyre huge and have no shields, meaning they take the full brunt of skirmish fire, which will almost always be focused on them. And they're terrible duellists, treekin and single model units hold very well against them as long as they absorb the charge properly. Also, in just a handful of tests, glade guard with hagbanes+starfires+treekin, which is not at all unlikely vs norsca, melted the mammoth AND chaos lord without a single loss. The new ROR waystalkers+treekin routed the mammoth and chaos lord with similar ease. The mammoth is only really good vs mobs, and I suspect that a faction like undead might struggle against them, but vs any combined arms its performance, at least in MP, is pretty bad.

Like i said above i dont play SP i could care less about MP. but they just last too much againts spears for example. Elephants in battle were used to charge the line do extreme damage but as battles got longer they went beserk when they damage the trunks or limbs. to me the Mammoth should represent that way.i hope they add that in TW2 for the norscans.

I Play SP and as Single player Having 6 armies whit limited territory you cnat have in all 6 armies top tier units i am playing Wood Elves now whit Orion and i have 2 Elite armies (Orion and Durthu) full stack the rest are 16/20 stacks whit lower units Spearmen etc.

I tried whit Brettonia they are having a hard time Emprie too and like yous aid VC have lots of problems also due to lack of ranged units.

Dwarf fared better in prolonged battle but losed a lot on the charge.

If youre the guy in charge of brettonia or empire you should have no trouble with mammoths at all. You have plenty of tools to deal with them. And the fact that they lose control is easily shown by the fact that the elephants morale is atrocious, if they went on rampage it would probably only make them stronger since you can currently rout them off easily and get them out of your hair at least for a little while. The unbreakable night gobbos+3 gobbo archers can rout off a war mammoth with less than half of the meatshield gobbos dead. That is how pitiful they are vs focused range fire.

Also, getting massed decent-elite armies is ez as Welves in particular because they play like a horde, you can easily field 8 awesome stacks and tear through everything in your path.

Warshrine is already slower. It goes 40 instead of 56. If you as the human player struggle to deal with mammoths, especially AI mammoths, then you really need to work on your counterplay. Unlike arachnaroks and steam tanks theyre a top tier unit that's easily shut down by comboing dirt cheap starter units.

[anolisjd1990]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Wyvern:

Początkowo opublikowane przez anolisjd1990:

Like i said above i dont play SP i could care less about MP. but they just last too much againts spears for example. Elephants in battle were used to charge the line do extreme damage but as battles got longer they went beserk when they damage the trunks or limbs. to me the Mammoth should represent that way.i hope they add that in TW2 for the norscans.

I Play SP and as Single player Having 6 armies whit limited territory you cnat have in all 6 armies top tier units i am playing Wood Elves now whit Orion and i have 2 Elite armies (Orion and Durthu) full stack the rest are 16/20 stacks whit lower units Spearmen etc.

I tried whit Brettonia they are having a hard time Emprie too and like yous aid VC have lots of problems also due to lack of ranged units.

Dwarf fared better in prolonged battle but losed a lot on the charge.

If youre the guy in charge of brettonia or empire you should have no trouble with mammoths at all. You have plenty of tools to deal with them. And the fact that they lose control is easily shown by the fact that the elephants morale is atrocious, if they went on rampage it would probably only make them stronger since you can currently rout them off easily and get them out of your hair at least for a little while. The unbreakable night gobbos+3 gobbo archers can rout off a war mammoth with less than half of the meatshield gobbos dead. That is how pitiful they are vs focused range fire.

Also, getting massed decent-elite armies is ez as Welves in particular because they play like a horde, you can easily field 8 awesome stacks and tear through everything in your path.

Warshrine is already slower. It goes 40 instead of 56. If you as the human player struggle to deal with mammoths, especially AI mammoths, then you really need to work on your counterplay. Unlike arachnaroks and steam tanks theyre a top tier unit that's easily shut down by comboing dirt cheap starter units.

Nice ideas Wywern i tried some of the stuff you told me its good. So far i tried almost all of them but the one who have it worse now after some tries is the VC. againts Mammoths its very hard.

When i do these scenarios to test good counter sin custom battle i tend to try to achieve my objective by using the cheapest units posible. so far the best cheap counter i had againts war mammoths and they had tons of problems are Skeleton Spearmen. but its worth it for the price of one mammoth i can field various Skeleton Spearmen.

In Single player i rarely use top tier units they take to much time to research and field them, so i deal whit lower-mid tier units. that my style of play dirt cheap armies and good economy.

So after some thought the Mammoth its not so hard but it would be nice if they added for the mammoth "rampage" so if they get hurt they turn back on their allies.

[Aluminum Elite Master]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Daliena:

Mammoths are vastly less awesome when faced with actually being focused by anti-large, or god forbid ranged fire. I've seen a feral mammoth break in almost the time it took to reach melee when face with spearmen with shields and a bunch of ranged fire.

This is very true, but is largely irrelevant when it comes to the SP campaign, as the CPU tends to be very, very bad about prioritizing the correct targets for its ranged units. It's an easy trick to send out a couple of cannon-fodder marauders to soak up enemy ranged damage when playing against the CPU. Further, in the SP campaign, there are abilities/techs that can buff Mammoths even more.

But, well, against even just a semi-decent human player, expect to get *a lot* of ranged fire directed onto your mammoths. And, from there, expect to see your mammoths indeed break almost before getting into melee. Worst of all, against a human being in custom battle, your mammoths aren't getting any tech boosts or ability boosts while at the same time being rofl-stomped by your opponent's ranged units.

[Jackiebrown]

Początkowo opublikowane przez DarkFenix:

Fight an endgame Wood Elf army, watch those mammoths disintegrate in about 4 seconds flat. Just got my ass handed to me on a silver platter by Orion in my campaign, they seem to be a natural hard counter to a monster-heavy Norscan army, with lots of long range AP and a ton of melee AP/anti-large.

Can confirm this. In my case I had Wulfrik 1v1ing Orion, my god is Wulfrik good at taking out other characters in single combat.

[Wyvern]

Początkowo opublikowane przez anolisjd1990:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Wyvern:

If youre the guy in charge of brettonia or empire you should have no trouble with mammoths at all. You have plenty of tools to deal with them. And the fact that they lose control is easily shown by the fact that the elephants morale is atrocious, if they went on rampage it would probably only make them stronger since you can currently rout them off easily and get them out of your hair at least for a little while. The unbreakable night gobbos+3 gobbo archers can rout off a war mammoth with less than half of the meatshield gobbos dead. That is how pitiful they are vs focused range fire.

Also, getting massed decent-elite armies is ez as Welves in particular because they play like a horde, you can easily field 8 awesome stacks and tear through everything in your path.

Warshrine is already slower. It goes 40 instead of 56. If you as the human player struggle to deal with mammoths, especially AI mammoths, then you really need to work on your counterplay. Unlike arachnaroks and steam tanks theyre a top tier unit that's easily shut down by comboing dirt cheap starter units.

Nice ideas Wywern i tried some of the stuff you told me its good. So far i tried almost all of them but the one who have it worse now after some tries is the VC. againts Mammoths its very hard.

When i do these scenarios to test good counter sin custom battle i tend to try to achieve my objective by using the cheapest units posible. so far the best cheap counter i had againts war mammoths and they had tons of problems are Skeleton Spearmen. but its worth it for the price of one mammoth i can field various Skeleton Spearmen.

In Single player i rarely use top tier units they take to much time to research and field them, so i deal whit lower-mid tier units. that my style of play dirt cheap armies and good economy.

So after some thought the Mammoth its not so hard but it would be nice if they added for the mammoth "rampage" so if they get hurt they turn back on their allies.

I did some test runs vs mammoths and so far the best "counter" builds ive had luck with are double cairn wraiths+skeleton spears backed by nehek and bloodknights+cryptghouls+nehek. In both cases the enemy lord was interfering and my units still managed to come out on top.

[Daliena]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Aluminum Elite Master:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Daliena:

Mammoths are vastly less awesome when faced with actually being focused by anti-large, or god forbid ranged fire. I've seen a feral mammoth break in almost the time it took to reach melee when face with spearmen with shields and a bunch of ranged fire.

This is very true, but is largely irrelevant when it comes to the SP campaign, as the CPU tends to be very, very bad about prioritizing the correct targets for its ranged units. It's an easy trick to send out a couple of cannon-fodder marauders to soak up enemy ranged damage when playing against the CPU. Further, in the SP campaign, there are abilities/techs that can buff Mammoths even more.

But, well, against even just a semi-decent human player, expect to get *a lot* of ranged fire directed onto your mammoths. And, from there, expect to see your mammoths indeed break almost before getting into melee. Worst of all, against a human being in custom battle, your mammoths aren't getting any tech boosts or ability boosts while at the same time being rofl-stomped by your opponent's ranged units.

Well nerfing units into oblivion just because the AI is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ terrible shouldn't really be the first solution, should it? I don't even play MP myself, but I'm still of the opinion that if you feel that mammoth doomstacks are too powerful against AI, DON'T USE MAMMOTH DOOMSTACKS. Let's not pretend like just about every faction doesn't have an expensive elite unit it can get a ton of that the AI simply won't be able to effectively fight due to how handicapped it is. What we should be asking for is the AI to be made smart enough to figure out how to counter such kindergarten level tactics.

Also on the topic of giants hunting mammoths, find me the point where it says that said giants go 1v1 on those hunts instead of working together. Humans hunt all kinds of deadly animals too, less frequently do they do it alone in case the ♥♥♥♥ hits the fan.

[Aenarion]

Początkowo opublikowane przez anolisjd1990:

Początkowo opublikowane przez DarkFenix:

Fight an endgame Wood Elf army, watch those mammoths disintegrate in about 4 seconds flat. Just got my ass handed to me on a silver platter by Orion in my campaign, they seem to be a natural hard counter to a monster-heavy Norscan army, with lots of long range AP and a ton of melee AP/anti-large.

Yeah i a playing Orion Now they melt kind of quickly thats true but what about ther other races? but those are only one factions what about Brettonia poor sods are getting theit butts handed.

Is swamping them with cycle charging shock cav not effective? Haven't tested but seems like it should work with being harder to knock around than infantry and anti-large.

And of course, if you're fielding all cav (which I think you should as Brets), the mammoth should only ever make it into melee on terms of your choosing.

[Wyvern]

Początkowo opublikowane przez rymeintrinseca:

Początkowo opublikowane przez anolisjd1990:

Yeah i a playing Orion Now they melt kind of quickly thats true but what about ther other races? but those are only one factions what about Brettonia poor sods are getting theit butts handed.

Is swamping them with cycle charging shock cav not effective? Haven't tested but seems like it should work with being harder to knock around than infantry and anti-large.

And of course, if you're fielding all cav (which I think you should as Brets), the mammoth should only ever make it into melee on terms of your choosing.

The mammoth does a lot of splash and decimates cav units pretty hard. Not as hard as infantry, but hard nonetheless, and god help you if it gets its charge off, then you're in deep trouble.

Interestingly, with some nehek support, I found that cairn and hex-wraiths can be incredibly cost efficient mammoth killers for VC since they dont take anywhere near as much damage from the splash and stomping around of the mammoth.

In general though, melee is a bad way to go vs mammoths because they tend to perma-stun/knock back your units, even really big ones like treemen, which can be incredibly frustrating to deal with. Large low model count units and skirmish fire seem to be the best mammoth killers in my experience though. By focusing a feral mammoth with durthu, a branchwraith and treeman, I managed to delete it incredibly quickly, and would have probably succeeded even against a war mammoth with relative speed.