Norsca War mammoth are unbalanced they need a nerf.

[anolisjd1990]

Ok Norsca is fun and all but the war mammoths are too powerfull they deal too much damage, combined whit the Norsca ability to get more powerfull as the battle goes one its too much. The ability is fine but i think there need to be more time for their levels.


i think they need to add old TW mechanics like the Lizardsmen monsters "rampage" ability that go nuts when it hits enought times and go mad and attack your troops.

The War Mammoth 11000Hp, armoured, ranged attacks,cause terror, armoured piercing, deadly charge now add the ability to get better as the battle keeps going all for the price of 2200..... its just to damn OP.

I am playing only on Single player i dont want to inmagien what multiplayer is like.

They are awesome but they NEED a nerf on the mammoth department.


UPDATE


Ok, i tried whit all races and to my surprise the one who had the hardest time were orks they just routed they dont have many anti large units and they ranged its not the best beastmen also had probelms.. Compiled whit the Norsca ability to get stronger as the battle goes its just awful.

I can finnally come to the conclusion that war mammoths are OP they have to much damn health, armoured cause terror and armoured piercing. its sick really. hell even other monstrous creatures have a hard time.

Also you guys are counting as if the Mammoth is alone, he accompanied by and army that bascially act as support for the mammoths. hell i pitted dragons againt them,Steam tanks, Giants, E.artillery, hypogrypth cavarly and all came out losing the only one who had some luck was the Arachnok and some Dwarf artillery but even them.

One problem the have also its that it causes terror, armoured,hIght healt and anti armor its just to much. dont even get me started on the RoR one....like i said before the Mammoth does not come alone when it charges combined whit the fear almost all units beging routing adn that were the rest of the army comes in moping it up and ganging up on any remaining enemy monster.

I don't care what people say about posible combinations like one has an "Anti-Mammoth army" laying around on the campaign map. its too op combined hwit the Norsca ability to get better as time goes in just 3 minutes.

[Carson]

Cant agree more in single player Mammoths are broken. An army of the 2 RoR mammoths a general on a mammoth and 2 regular mammoths supported by anything is just op as hell. And if you follow the Hound god you get a set of 4 hell cannons in 1 unit which supports your beast army and pretty much makes you always win

[Daliena]

Mammoths are vastly less awesome when faced with actually being focused by anti-large, or god forbid ranged fire. I've seen a feral mammoth break in almost the time it took to reach melee when face with spearmen with shields and a bunch of ranged fire.

[Eminem]

NERF

[Metal Izanagi]

Ah, the good old "elephants OP pls nerf" thread.

It's not that elephants are overpowered. It's that the AI and a lot of players don't know how to counter them. There are two important things that you can use to deal with elephants as a player:

1 - Focus ranged infantry and artillery on them. Cannons, rockets, catapults, spellcasters, gunners, crossbowmen, and even regular archers if that's all you have. You'll likely have to sacrifice a unit or two of infantry to hold the elephants still while you unload on them, but elephants are an expensive unit with a low number of men in the unit, so they're going to be pretty hard to put down quickly.

2 - Halberds. Halberd units in this game are the closest you can get to the pikemen from other TW games, and are the bane of elephants.



A few pointers for dealing with elephants/mammoths:

- Try and get one of your less valuable units to soak the initial charge. Unless you have battle-hardened heavy halberdiers standing still, facing the charge down and bracing for the incoming attack, an elephant charge will hurt, a lot. The big beasts are gonna do a lot of damage in their first attack anyway, so you may as well let some guys that you won't miss eat the charge.

- As soon as they finish their initial charge, swarm them with anti-large units if possible. If you give elephants a chance to retreat from an engagement and cycle into another charge, you'll have taken a rather nasty punch without giving your foe one in return. An elephant stuck in a pile of infantry and getting attacked from all sides is far less dangerous than one that you've given a chance to charge again. This is known as "tarpitting" the enemy, and is generally your best bet when dealing with heavy cavalry and elephants in every Total War game so far.

- Don't engage elephants with your own cavalry, especially if the elephants are charging. Cavalry charges can't really compare to elephant charges head-on, and if you try to go in from the flank while the elephants are charging they'll just kinda..run over your horses. Just don't do it. The only exception to this is if you've got some really nails heavy melee cavalry, and even then don't engage during a charge. Wait until the elephants are either not charging or are tarpitted with a bunch of your anti-large infantry.

- This should go without saying, but don't try to both unload with ranged units and tarpit elephants with infantry at the same time, unless you don't mind accidentally shooting your own guys a bunch. Gunners and to a lesser degree crossbowmen are the exception, as their missiles don't arc enough to hit too many of your guys while the shooters aim at the elephants, which are generally much taller than your infantry.

[pin]

hmm couple of things they can consider to balance it
1. Make it go berserk after certain hp dmg or special dmg/special effects/ leadership drop
2. nerf hp, Should be less than a giant
3. raise costs. This thing is more powerful than steam tank or even shaggoths and shouldn't cost the same
4. nerf speed of armored variants. Fast speed, high HP, super high piercing area stomp dmg, WITH ARMOR is just crazy lol. Giants in comparison have much slower speed and less area charge effect to compensate. This thing can charge everywhere and break formations all day.

And no, 1 mammoth is fine. Problems arise when players bring total 3-4 and focus charge them. Almost nothing can stop it. Not infantry, they will just get stomped over. Not Demigryphs. Mammoths actually eats demis. Not Giants. These things out tank and out damage giants. as for gun lines, mammoths will just charge into them and break them almost instantly. Only thing that may counter them are javelin calv/outriders, and those need open fields and will still take too long to do the dmg before they route your main force.

[Metal Izanagi]

Originally posted by pin:

hmm couple of things they can consider to balance it
1. Make it go berserk after certain hp dmg or special dmg/special effects/ leadership drop
2. nerf hp, Should be less than a giant
3. raise costs. This thing is more powerful than steam tank or even shaggoths and shouldn't cost the same
4. nerf speed of armored variants. Fast speed, high HP, super high piercing area stomp dmg, WITH ARMOR is just crazy lol. Giants in comparison have much slower speed and less area charge effect to compensate. This thing can charge everywhere and break formations all day.

1 - If the elephants can't go berserk, that's definitely a bit strange. Elephants have always had a berserk state to balance them out in previous games.

2 - Why should it be less than a giant? There's no reason to compare elephants and giants. Just because they're both large creatures doesn't mean that their stats should be similar.

3 - Steam tanks have ranged capability, and shaggoths are honestly just underpowered. Shaggoths need to be buffed a bit, but other than that the cost is fine.

4 - Again you're comparing elephants to giants. Two entirely different species. Not going to bother refuting this point, as it isn't a point to begin with.

Originally posted by pin:

And no, 1 mammoth is fine. Problems arise when players bring total 3-4 and focus charge them. Almost nothing can stop it. Not infantry, they will just get stomped over. Not Demigryphs. Mammoths actually eats demis. Not Giants. These things out tank and out damage giants. as for gun lines, mammoths will just charge into them and break them almost instantly. Only thing that may counter them are javelin calv/outriders, and those need open fields and will still take too long to do the dmg before they route your main force.

Why do you keep comparing mammoths to giants? They're not meant to be similar. One is a cavalry unit meant to charge into combat and either smash through a line for other troops, or cycle-charge to break an enemy formation. The other is basically a giant infantry unit with higher than normal hitpoints, meant to break down fortifications and wipe out weaker enemy units while your other units take care of ranged units and cavalry.

If you had actually read what I posted instead of just adding onto your original post less than a minute after you posted, you'd see that I made no mention of "gun lines" of any sort. What kind of dummy would try and use a line of gunners to take on an elephant? You're supposed to keep the elephant busy and not charging while your gunners unload on it.

People bringing multiple elephants is just another cheese build for multiplayer, and a perfect example of why multiplayer in Total War will never be important. If it's not multiple elephants, it'll be skirmisher cavalry. If it's not skirmisher cavalry, it'll be shock cavalry charges. If it's not cavalry, it'll be artillery spam surrounded by walls of spearmen. There are always going to be cheesy army compositions that wipe out any army not specifically designed to counter them. If your opponent brought four elephants, that's four less units of another type that they can bring, and the rest of their army won't be as good because of the cost of the elephants. If you're not playing with some sort of limit on costs or at least an agreement to not use cheesy army comps like that, you may as well not play multiplayer in the first place, because that's all you're going to run into.

[Sargeist]

I've been doing some playtesting with mammoths. They're definitely tough, but their not unkillable if you use the right tools aganist them. A couple of any high tier unit with anti large can kill them (Chosen with halberds, Wildwood Rangers, Minotaurs with great weapons etc etc).

Lower tier units like Bretonnian pole arms or Empire halberds struggle big time though.

I don't play multiplayer, but I imagine mammoths will get nerfed or their price increased if people keep cheesing them.

[Wyvern]

I think the OP was complaining about how good the mammoth is vs AI. Of course a human player will shut you down, and shut you down hard.

Originally posted by pin:

hmm couple of things they can consider to balance it
1. Make it go berserk after certain hp dmg or special dmg/special effects/ leadership drop
2. nerf hp, Should be less than a giant
3. raise costs. This thing is more powerful than steam tank or even shaggoths and shouldn't cost the same
4. nerf speed of armored variants. Fast speed, high HP, super high piercing area stomp dmg, WITH ARMOR is just crazy lol. Giants in comparison have much slower speed and less area charge effect to compensate. This thing can charge everywhere and break formations all day.

And no, 1 mammoth is fine. Problems arise when players bring total 3-4 and focus charge them. Almost nothing can stop it. Not infantry, they will just get stomped over. Not Demigryphs. Mammoths actually eats demis. Not Giants. These things out tank and out damage giants. as for gun lines, mammoths will just charge into them and break them almost instantly. Only thing that may counter them are javelin calv/outriders, and those need open fields and will still take too long to do the dmg before they route your main force.

1)Would make sense, but their morale is already bad for such a big+expensive unit, theyre rather easy to break with ranged fire.
2)It's a different unit than the giant that serves a vastly different purpose, and the war mammoth variant, which is the one with significantly better hp, costs 600 more, why even bother comparing the two. That's ignoring the fact that the Mammoth is much beefier and larger than the giant, so more hp makes sense.
3)Shaggoths are meh, steam tanks have ranged and stupid amoutns of armor, plus should be coming in with lore of life if the player using them knows what theyre doing. Mammoths have HP and splash+charge bonus. Their armor is potato tier and their hp falls apart incredibly quickly.
4)Slight nerf to speed would make sense, especially given that the shrine variant is slower, but their armor is still bad, their speed is meh, fast for infantry but nothing else, and it's more expensive than the giant, stop comparing the two. you can field 4 crossbows for the price of a mammoth, and they will bring it down handily.

[Yasahi]

Every elite unit is OP against AI when you create doomstacks. It's not limited to mammoths. You can spam Steam tanks and Demigryphs with a healer on Empire. Giants, Arachnaroks and Boarboy Big 'Uns on Greenskins. Grail Guardians, Grail Knights, Royal Pegasus Knights with a healer on Bretonnia and so on. All of them can be shut down but the AI doesn't really focus them the way it should.

Feral mammoths drop to Skin wolves or a couple of Hunters with javelins. Two Empire musketeers or Dwarf thunderers will shred even a War Mammoth before it gets through a defensive unit.

[anolisjd1990]

Originally posted by Carson:

Cant agree more in single player Mammoths are broken. An army of the 2 RoR mammoths a general on a mammoth and 2 regular mammoths supported by anything is just op as hell. And if you follow the Hound god you get a set of 4 hell cannons in 1 unit which supports your beast army and pretty much makes you always win

Yeah that what happened to me i had a 18 stack and i beta the army easily but the mammoths one of the was RoR and the other was normal even the normal took a long time to die. by the end of the conflict the RoR had a whoping 300kills even spearmen did nothing.

yea good point Chaos i ditn know that i followed nurgle.


LIke i said above to me its only the mamoths teh rest of monster are just fine.

[anolisjd1990]

Originally posted by Metal Izanagi:

Ah, the good old "elephants OP pls nerf" thread.

It's not that elephants are overpowered. It's that the AI and a lot of players don't know how to counter them. There are two important things that you can use to deal with elephants as a player:

1 - Focus ranged infantry and artillery on them. Cannons, rockets, catapults, spellcasters, gunners, crossbowmen, and even regular archers if that's all you have. You'll likely have to sacrifice a unit or two of infantry to hold the elephants still while you unload on them, but elephants are an expensive unit with a low number of men in the unit, so they're going to be pretty hard to put down quickly.

2 - Halberds. Halberd units in this game are the closest you can get to the pikemen from other TW games, and are the bane of elephants.



A few pointers for dealing with elephants/mammoths:

- Try and get one of your less valuable units to soak the initial charge. Unless you have battle-hardened heavy halberdiers standing still, facing the charge down and bracing for the incoming attack, an elephant charge will hurt, a lot. The big beasts are gonna do a lot of damage in their first attack anyway, so you may as well let some guys that you won't miss eat the charge.

- As soon as they finish their initial charge, swarm them with anti-large units if possible. If you give elephants a chance to retreat from an engagement and cycle into another charge, you'll have taken a rather nasty punch without giving your foe one in return. An elephant stuck in a pile of infantry and getting attacked from all sides is far less dangerous than one that you've given a chance to charge again. This is known as "tarpitting" the enemy, and is generally your best bet when dealing with heavy cavalry and elephants in every Total War game so far.

- Don't engage elephants with your own cavalry, especially if the elephants are charging. Cavalry charges can't really compare to elephant charges head-on, and if you try to go in from the flank while the elephants are charging they'll just kinda..run over your horses. Just don't do it. The only exception to this is if you've got some really nails heavy melee cavalry, and even then don't engage during a charge. Wait until the elephants are either not charging or are tarpitted with a bunch of your anti-large infantry.

- This should go without saying, but don't try to both unload with ranged units and tarpit elephants with infantry at the same time, unless you don't mind accidentally shooting your own guys a bunch. Gunners and to a lesser degree crossbowmen are the exception, as their missiles don't arc enough to hit too many of your guys while the shooters aim at the elephants, which are generally much taller than your infantry.

why people got to be hostile i being respectfull..... The Elephantns for example in all TW games to me were balanced but in this one.

[anolisjd1990]

Originally posted by Daliena:

Mammoths are vastly less awesome when faced with actually being focused by anti-large, or god forbid ranged fire. I've seen a feral mammoth break in almost the time it took to reach melee when face with spearmen with shields and a bunch of ranged fire.

But do you see? that what's wrong,one should not have to built a specilized army of Mammoth killer, just for Mammoths that means it a little op. the purpose of elephants units in TW has been always to have a deadly charge and do some damage, after that they tended to die quickly, in this case however i am noticing they last too much.

To me its more the Healht not the attack strenght.its just too tanky.

[anolisjd1990]

Originally posted by pin:

hmm couple of things they can consider to balance it
1. Make it go berserk after certain hp dmg or special dmg/special effects/ leadership drop
2. nerf hp, Should be less than a giant
3. raise costs. This thing is more powerful than steam tank or even shaggoths and shouldn't cost the same
4. nerf speed of armored variants. Fast speed, high HP, super high piercing area stomp dmg, WITH ARMOR is just crazy lol. Giants in comparison have much slower speed and less area charge effect to compensate. This thing can charge everywhere and break formations all day.

And no, 1 mammoth is fine. Problems arise when players bring total 3-4 and focus charge them. Almost nothing can stop it. Not infantry, they will just get stomped over. Not Demigryphs. Mammoths actually eats demis. Not Giants. These things out tank and out damage giants. as for gun lines, mammoths will just charge into them and break them almost instantly. Only thing that may counter them are javelin calv/outriders, and those need open fields and will still take too long to do the dmg before they route your main force.

(slow clap) i agree that all i am saying the Norsca faction is very well made and thought off i really like them but the Mammoth got to much health. i dont mind the attack its more of the health.

Also Giants look tiny comapred to mammoths is their size like that on tabletop? i am aTW fan i dotn know much about tabletop.

[DarkFenix]

Fight an endgame Wood Elf army, watch those mammoths disintegrate in about 4 seconds flat. Just got my ass handed to me on a silver platter by Orion in my campaign, they seem to be a natural hard counter to a monster-heavy Norscan army, with lots of long range AP and a ton of melee AP/anti-large.

[anolisjd1990]

Originally posted by Metal Izanagi:

Originally posted by pin:

hmm couple of things they can consider to balance it
1. Make it go berserk after certain hp dmg or special dmg/special effects/ leadership drop
2. nerf hp, Should be less than a giant
3. raise costs. This thing is more powerful than steam tank or even shaggoths and shouldn't cost the same
4. nerf speed of armored variants. Fast speed, high HP, super high piercing area stomp dmg, WITH ARMOR is just crazy lol. Giants in comparison have much slower speed and less area charge effect to compensate. This thing can charge everywhere and break formations all day.

1 - If the elephants can't go berserk, that's definitely a bit strange. Elephants have always had a berserk state to balance them out in previous games.

2 - Why should it be less than a giant? There's no reason to compare elephants and giants. Just because they're both large creatures doesn't mean that their stats should be similar.

3 - Steam tanks have ranged capability, and shaggoths are honestly just underpowered. Shaggoths need to be buffed a bit, but other than that the cost is fine.

4 - Again you're comparing elephants to giants. Two entirely different species. Not going to bother refuting this point, as it isn't a point to begin with.

Originally posted by pin:

And no, 1 mammoth is fine. Problems arise when players bring total 3-4 and focus charge them. Almost nothing can stop it. Not infantry, they will just get stomped over. Not Demigryphs. Mammoths actually eats demis. Not Giants. These things out tank and out damage giants. as for gun lines, mammoths will just charge into them and break them almost instantly. Only thing that may counter them are javelin calv/outriders, and those need open fields and will still take too long to do the dmg before they route your main force.

Why do you keep comparing mammoths to giants? They're not meant to be similar. One is a cavalry unit meant to charge into combat and either smash through a line for other troops, or cycle-charge to break an enemy formation. The other is basically a giant infantry unit with higher than normal hitpoints, meant to break down fortifications and wipe out weaker enemy units while your other units take care of ranged units and cavalry.

If you had actually read what I posted instead of just adding onto your original post less than a minute after you posted, you'd see that I made no mention of "gun lines" of any sort. What kind of dummy would try and use a line of gunners to take on an elephant? You're supposed to keep the elephant busy and not charging while your gunners unload on it.

People bringing multiple elephants is just another cheese build for multiplayer, and a perfect example of why multiplayer in Total War will never be important. If it's not multiple elephants, it'll be skirmisher cavalry. If it's not skirmisher cavalry, it'll be shock cavalry charges. If it's not cavalry, it'll be artillery spam surrounded by walls of spearmen. There are always going to be cheesy army compositions that wipe out any army not specifically designed to counter them. If your opponent brought four elephants, that's four less units of another type that they can bring, and the rest of their army won't be as good because of the cost of the elephants. If you're not playing with some sort of limit on costs or at least an agreement to not use cheesy army comps like that, you may as well not play multiplayer in the first place, because that's all you're going to run into.

You are offering very complex but irrelevant themes to this, in the Lore Giants hunt and have Mammoths like sheep yet the Mammoth is seriously stronger, tell me are you stronger than a sheep?

Its needs some balance in the HP department and a frenzied state when it receives damage.
just like the games of old and like Lizardmen dinasours.

To me its needs a tweak sligth nerf to heath and i dont think they hsoudl have armoured it only has armor on the top.