Archaon's build

[DecayWolf]

I find a little bit difficult to make good viable builds for hybrid characters... Normal focused character are so much easier...

My biggest problem is, Chaos is probably the only faction that actually needs lighting strike to play on legendary difficult, all other factions this is optional or even counter productive.
Anyways, so I've to dump 7 points in utility to get lighting strike, but I also want to get some juicy magic and some specific units bonuses from leadership branch, with Archeon's god like passives...
Problem is there simply isn't enough points.

There is what I've come up so far:
Archeon:
Unique tree 8: Mount 1, Everchosen (3), The swords of Chaos (3), Lord of End Times (1).
Combat Skills 1: Eye of the Gods (1).
Lore of Fire 9: Fireball (1), Kindle Flame (1), Cascading Fire-Cloak (1), Flaming sword of Rhuin (1), The Burning Head (1), Evasion (1), Power Drain (1), Piercing Bolts of Burning (1), Flame Storm (1).
Leadership 7: Domninating Presence (1), Chaos Vanguard (3), Riders of the Apocalypse (3).
Tactics 4: Route Marcher (1), Tribes of Chaos (3).

So here are my options:
01 - Switch The Swords of Chaos for Lightning strike.
02 - Remove Eye of the Gods + Lord of the End times + Flame storm or Piercing Bolts of burning for Lightning strike.
03 - Level up my magic tree only till I get Flaming Sword of Rhuion, with the 4 points left I could get Heart of Iron and Aura of Chaos + Lightning strike.
04 - Another option?

I like magic, I find it pretty userful and kinda immersive to have a caster casting spells... But just there isn't that many points.
Due to fact that Chaos requires Lightning strike it makes Archaon build even harder than Mannfred's at some extent.

I don't know, give your opion about this.
Also what exactly Heart of Iron does? I mean I assume it makes units tire slower, but does anybody has a chart about how much slower it does this? Does it worth at all?

[Mr. Ape]

According to redditors, Heart of Iron reduces fatigue gain by (5/10/15%). So say if it normally takes 100 seconds (arbitrary) to become exhausted, with Heart of Iron it will 115 seconds to reach the same exhaustion level. This is quite insignificant if you compare it to skills that buff combat stats. Personally, I'd skip this skill all together.

Also, I don't think you should waste points on fire magic for Archaon. Lore of fire is terrible compared to shadow or death. The only time it generates value is against vampire counts or treekin. In those situations, just add a fire sorcerer.
Similarly, swords of chaos feels quite underwelming for just the charge bonus, It's basically half the value of Riders of the Apocalypse. Unless you plan on running with lots of Chaos Knight with lances, the few extra charge bonus you get is not worth the skill points.

For your build, I would remove all magic skill points, get lightning strike, and spend the remainder on buffing Chosen / improving Archaon survivability.

[Crypto]

i suggest you to focus Archaon on the red and blue skill line and get a chaos sorcerer if you want magic ( fire lore is underpowered but i suggest you to use the Cataph's Magic: Closer to Tabletop it make magic a lot more fun)

[DecayWolf]

Usually I like to run a cheap like army base to expand until I've a very strong income to produce the juicy units...
The only problem are the dwarfs, they really cannot be beaten by marauders on legendary, mainly when they reinforce themselves plus the bonus defense from the building... It's kinda crazy... Well I actually haven't really tried to siege them with a proper marauder army (great weapons), but it seems kinda crazy to try getting their capital this way.

But overall speaking I think my Chaos warriors are kinda enough to not need the choosen ones.
Just a comparison:
Leadership pretty much the same.
MA, almost same due chaos vanguard.
MD, -14, yeah... The only reason really.
Health -25 hp´per unit, but chaos warriors got +20 units so kinda equal.
Damage: chaos warriors can deal more damage due more units on the stack.
Upkeep 200 Favor vs 325. Final upkeep Chaos Warrior = 64, Chosen = 136,5.

The choosen are a little bit more tanky, while the warriors are a little bit more dps, but cost less than half due archaon campaign trait.

I don't think they worth that much extra. If I had started with Kholek or Sivgald, then maybe...

Also if I'm not mistaken, there are more tecnology upgrades towards the chaos warriors than there's for the choosen...

Fire magic has 2 userful spells.
Cascading Fire-Cloak userful for when going 1v1 an enemy lord, 36 melee defense is a HUGE boon on a duel. It could also assist an unit that I want to tank, but I don't think it would worth the mana. Shadow lore has a stronger spell, still pretty good as it's.
Flaming sword of Rhuin, userful. Not as strong as other lore of magic, but gets the job done.
(Combinating a chaos knight with lance charge from behind with this buff and all the skill tree passives, would be crazy.)

Burning bolts are good, but it needs overcast in order to deal a good damage, also requires a big mop.
Flame Storm could be awesome... Or not.
Burning head gives a -8 leadership, situational, not that great, but not useless...

IDK, instead of an sorcerer I could get an exalted hero, which would give me free exp.
The sorcerer still is a better assassin and deals more damage to assault enemy armies though.

Publicado originalmente por Crypto:

i suggest you to focus Archaon on the red and blue skill line and get a chaos sorcerer if you want magic ( fire lore is underpowered but i suggest you to use the Cataph's Magic: Closer to Tabletop it make magic a lot more fun)

The only stuff left from the leadership branch would be the very top tier units...
I think I can beat the game with Chaos warriors (shield, halberdier, great weapons) and Chaos Knights (sword and lance).
For siege I can bring Dragon Ogres for Kholek, Hells Cannons for Archaon and Sigvald, etc.
The extra specialist units would be based on the overall army composition, thus there won't be many of anything else, so I don't think it would justify spending 4 more points into leadership/red branch.

Also as I've said above, starting as Archaon, I don't think the Choosen ones are that much better to justify them over Chaos warriors.

For Kholek and Sigvald they both would have a lot more extra points, so it would be much easier to get further in the red branch if needed. Specially Sigvald.

Blue, I really don't need anything beyond lightningstrike, so that's 7 tops.

[Mr. Ape]

Publicado originalmente por DecayWolf:

But overall speaking I think my Chaos warriors are kinda enough to not need the choosen ones.
Just a comparison:
Leadership pretty much the same.
MA, almost same due chaos vanguard.
MD, -14, yeah... The only reason really.
Health -25 hp´per unit, but chaos warriors got +20 units so kinda equal.
Damage: chaos warriors can deal more damage due more units on the stack.
Upkeep 200 Favor vs 325. Final upkeep Chaos Warrior = 64, Chosen = 136,5.

The choosen are a little bit more tanky, while the warriors are a little bit more dps, but cost less than half due archaon campaign trait.

I don't think they worth that much extra. If I had started with Kholek or Sivgald, then maybe...

Chosen are leagues above Chaos Warriors. Take a look at this 1v1 fight between a standard Chosen with a standard Chaos Warrior. The Chosen didn't lose any models!

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1097760383

And the fact that you're playing on legendary means you'll need the Chosen. On legendary the AI like to spam multiple armies to attack you. Chaos Warriors, while strong enough to take on most enemy units in a 1v1 fight, will fall apart in a 2v1 or 3v1 fight. Since you can't load on legendary, it'll set you back hours of gameplay if you ever get ambushed or outnumbered. An army of Chosen will allow you to survive these make or break battles.

This is not mentioning how powerful Chosen are in auto resolves. By late game, my armies would be lord + 19 gold chevron Chosen with Halberd, and they can defeat any army in auto resolve.

[DecayWolf]

Well, units like Choosen are only killed with things like armor piercing...
So, if you put a flanking pistoler cav or a shooting pistolers attacking the choosen they'll die as the same as the warriors.

You might say, oh but against great weapons they have 14 plus MD + 25HP per model, that would make them extremely effective against infantary. Well, that's true, but that's about double upkeep cost. I'm the kind of guy that I'm satisfied with not the very best units, infact if I could I would've run a few armies with only marauders... But it didn't seemed viable.

Well, I'll sume my Lege.
At beginning of the game I've rushed towards the Dwarf, I killed one 17 army + razed his bottom settlement.
Then I had to retreat to take Kislev which was messing with my Vassal tribe.

Afterwards I forced march towards the Draka Kraka capital, he sent 20 stack towards Varg.
I got his capital and razed it, when I was about to destroy him Varg sent 2 full armies and Skeling sent 3 armies (both walking together) against me. I had to retreat because 5v1, well...
So I was pushed back to the north, I had to awaken 2 tribes for regeneration/extra troops in case of defense.

Then the varg sent more units, a total of 4 full armies.
Skaeling droped to just 2.
The dwarf sent his only army towards me. (he was walking together the noscars mind you)
I've put a flag to my vassal take destroy the last Dwarf settlement which was unprotected.
After my minion left towards the dwarf Kislev sent 3 armies against him, and then after me. Razed both of his buildings and I lost him, although he toke the last Dwarf settlement.

At the very same time Oustland sent 3 full armies, Nordland 2 armies, Ostemark 2 armies, Middle land 2 armies. I think Bretonnia might've sent 2 but they're stuck at the borders.

The good part was, all the empire factions was completely ignoring the Noscars tribes and they were flanking me at the west, while at the east there was Varg + Skaeling + Dwarf.

I managed to survive and beat the hell of them with Chaos Warriors and without Lightning strike. Simply put 2v3 or 2v4 is doable. (other stack with some chaos warriors/marauders, was fresh)

My Archaon is already level 22 and he still don't have lightning strike... Dang I really don't want to lose points from other places, although obviously lightning strike would benefit me the most.
As for my army... Dude, it's crazy strong, Archaon army has 6 Chaos Warriors, 4 Chaos Warriors with Great Weapons, 4 Chaos Knights, 2 Chaos Knights with Lance, 2 Hells Cannons and 1 Aspiring Champion for leadership on the flanking infantary units.
With this army I can 2v1 pretty easily.

[LuNi]

You want growth and access to lightning strike. Then you want leadership abilities. I would put my points into Campaign and battlefield skills.

You have exalted heroes and chaos sorcerers for magic or dueling purposes.

[DecayWolf]

Yeah, playing without growth is not doable. Agreed.
Archaon and Sigvald are much better duelist than Exalted hero.

All my heroes have leadership branch upgrades, specifically for their army roster. One of the reasons why I want Chaos Warriors over Choosen ones.

I want to use a hybrid character than can use spells, using spells, that's all. I could simply get an sorcerer, that would be better, but... I want Archaon casting spells.

__

I guess I'll trade Lord of End Times (+25% aura range) + Piercing Bolts of Burning (Requires overcast to get gud) + Eye of the Gods for Lightning Strike.

I could simply not go for magic, but it's not happening.
While The swords of Chaos is a lot weaker than Riders of the Apocalypse, it's complementary, and I want to have as many buffs to my army roster as possible.

So that's it. Not a perfect set up and highly personal taste (no magic would be more efficient, no deny), but that's what I could come with with just 29 points.
Hybrid builds are a pain in the arse.

[YaMe]

I never max out categories, I think its a waste for hybrid lords, the only real exception would be horde growth, I only put two max points into battlefield skills then move on to the next level, you could also claw back one point from swords. You can mitigate these losses with banners, tech and veterancy

[DecayWolf]

Well, last update. You guys were right about magic, it toke I while for me to be abled to test because I gave priority to other skills...
Basically Bolts of buring requires overcast to be good, I didn't wanted to risk Archaon's health for that.
Flame Storm is so freaking unreliable. While that I could've got more army bonuses that would benefit me, plus lightning strike which is so good. And at the end of the day a proper sorcerer could overcast which would make him more effective and it won't hurt his skill tree by one bit.

I was on turn 103, killed 2 of 3 armies from the chaos betrayel, pretty much as soon they've spawned. I had 3 vassals tribes (lost 1 at beginning), and was wrecking the empire... But I'm thinking about restarting, wrong builds makes me annoyed.
One thing though while Lightning strike is awesome, I think it's not necessary to beat the game on legendary, but it's certaintly helpful.

Archeon:
Unique tree 9: Mount (1), Everchosen (3), The Swords of Chaos (3), Lord of End Times (1), Aura of Chaos (1).
Combat Skills 1: Eye of the Gods (1).
Lore of Fire 2: Fireball (1), Flaming sword of Rhuin (1).
Leadership 10: Dominating Presence (1), Chaos Vanguard (3), Riders of the Apocalypse (3), Hearts of Iron (3).
Tactics 7: Route Marcher (1), Tribes of Chaos (3), Serve or Die (1), Unholy Resilience (1), Lightning Strike (1).

That's how it looks like now. Gonna get a sorcerer of Shadow or Death.
I hope CA makes Archaon magic build viable at some day.

[DecayWolf]

Does Kindle Flame stack?