I don't understand Beastmen Sieges

[Muscarine]

I'm on Normal grand campaign, and i just don't understand how i'm supposed to progress, i feel i'm missing key mechanics.

It's been 50 turns or so and all i can do is attack minor settlements, because the enemy Lords simply never leave their capitals. They camp there, vastly outnumber me and my absence of siege weapons while they all pack dozens of ranged units and 2-3 canons.
I figured i need Cygors but that's a ♥♥♥♥ tone of growth and favor, i can't imagine being able to afford that before another 50-60 turns just raiding and attacking whatever minor settlement is respawned. So i guess that's not it.

I have 2 parties, one at 19 and one at 16, level ~10 average, playing Morghul so Chaos Spawns and Harpies, a few dogs, a few cheap frontliners, and some raiders.

I got a beyherd, figured we'll attack all together so i told them to target the less solid enemy capital i could find, they got there, started a siege, and never ♥♥♥♥ing stopped, and i realized i couldn't attack while they do so.
I passed 10 turns, nope, they still siege, and the AI spams me with agents attempting to assassinate my own leaders.
So i'm stucked between a supposedly allied beyherd which denies me my objective and assassispam, other capitals are a no go unless i click end turn 60 times for Cygors, corruption does nothing, the AI doesn't even bother rebuilding their settlements anymore.

What's the strategy ? Play shaman and abuse devolve ? Somehow rush Cygors by turn 10 ?
I don't get it.
Any tactical input would be greatly appreciated.

[Lancaster]

Originally posted by Muscarine:

Alright thank you, i use Morghur to bait ranged a lot too since i got lucky and he has a +20% ranged resist artifact so 90% total.

I'll make sure to watch both your recommendations.

Morghur is probably the best siege attacker in the game, because if you are "scummy" enough you can sit him in front of archers while your men hide and drain all of their ammo. I don't mean "sit" him you got to keep him moving left and right to dodge some of the missile fire, and not be in the arc of a tower.

With his natural regen and missile resist, and if you get the protos armor with 30% missile defense, you basically ruin every siege battle, infact you'll probably want to do siege battles over land battles, because you can wipe out their entire army in one go.

If you want I can do a quick campaign match with you and do the first siege with Khazrak to give you some ideas, being vastly outnumbered isn't a huge problem, because winning on the walls destroys the enemies morale.

[Muscarine]

Originally posted by Lancaster:

Originally posted by Muscarine:

Alright thank you, i use Morghur to bait ranged a lot too since i got lucky and he has a +20% ranged resist artifact so 90% total.

I'll make sure to watch both your recommendations.

Morghur is probably the best siege attacker in the game, because if you are "scummy" enough you can sit him in front of archers while your men hide and drain all of their ammo. I don't mean "sit" him you got to keep him moving left and right to dodge some of the missile fire, and not be in the arc of a tower.

With his natural regen and missile resist, and if you get the protos armor with 30% missile defense, you basically ruin every siege battle, infact you'll probably want to do siege battles over land battles, because you can wipe out their entire army in one go.

If you want I can do a quick campaign match with you and do the first siege with Khazrak to give you some ideas, being vastly outnumbered isn't a huge problem, because winning on the walls destroys the enemies morale.

That's really nice of you but i don't have the time for this.
I usually watch LPs while working so it helps.

I think you made it clear i don't use Morghur enough, i think i still have an older save before my Brayherd got me stucked, so i'll watch these recommendations and try again.
Plus the fact that Chaos Spawns can attack walls will obviously make a difference too >.>
That's always my problem with TW series, i seem to miss crucial obvious informations because i feel overwhelmed.

[Lancaster]

I know you know, but I just want to clarify, Chaos Spawn can attack the gate doors, not the walls.

[TVMAN]

Originally posted by Muscarine:

I thought i'd do that, break them and spread corruption, but it says 60 turns for public disorder(which may very well attack me), and it's been over 20 turns i razed all their settlements, they don't rebuild, but somehow they still have a positive 80 income per turn despites this massive army.

Now that I think about it, you should consider just walking away as an option. Normally when I play Beastmen, I cut my way through Bretonnia and then rampage through the Border Princes, sacking/razing small towns for money in order to build up stacks. I start sacking the large cities once I have at least two stacks + two brayherds going, and by that point I'm normally heading back north through Black Fire Pass in order to meet up with the Chaos invasion.

You're in the Empire lands now, right? If I were you, I'd head south-southeast towards BFP while leaving a burning trail of destruction behind my herds. Since you're a horde faction, you're not really tied down to any one place. Go pick on some weaker factions for awhile and then come back for the Empire once you have the numbers.

[Shandor]

Originally posted by Muscarine:

Originally posted by Shandor:

I think you build to many weak units that die in a heartbeat. Like Hounds and Harpies.

You should get Bestigors, Centigors, Minos or Chaos Spawn. But leaving out Minos for Chaos spawn is not a great idea. Minotaurus is your best Unit by far.

To Siege a Capital city you should get 2 Armies of 20 Units. Build 2 or 4 Siege towers for toe Bestigors and crush the wall with Mostrous infantry.. Mino/Spawn. Overrun the first infantry defenders t reach the ranged units behind them and attack the Infantry you did overrun with your Monsters with your infantry or shoot them.

2 Armies + a hayberd wont hurt.

Well it works really well on the field i won my last engagement at 50/50 with barely 11 death against their 900 or so (no auto resolve but don't forget i'm on Normal, not Legendary), and Minotaures are @ +40% upkeep with Morghur so i figured i should avoid them.
Morghur also has buffs for chaos units so it makes sense to focus on those as opposed to the other lords don't you think ?

Plus i don't think it'd be a good idea to spread my growth and favor over so many different buildings, just upgrading the tier and chaos tree is a lot already.

Thank you for the tactical input, although how can i do that when there are so many ranged units ? 1/5 of their units is infantry, the rest is pistoleers, crossbows, ranged cavalry, and siege weapons.

I picked Gorebull instead of shaman, is that why i'm having issues ? Most LPs i saw, people camp their shaman down the walls and double tap spells.

Originally posted by TVMAN:

Sacking/razing the smaller cities and breaking the AI hold over provinces will really screw up their economy. The AI can't maintain several stacks if all they're left with is one or two major cities surrounded by ruins.

I thought i'd do that, break them and spread corruption, but it says 60 turns for public disorder(which may very well attack me), and it's been over 20 turns i razed all their settlements, they don't rebuild, but somehow they still have a positive 80 income per turn despites this massive army.

I have to say i didnt play with Morgur so far. so i might be totaly wrong with Minos here. If that is so im sorry. In my last Beastman campaign thats what i did but with a different starting Lord.

And for your Question: No Gorebulls are fine. There is nothing wrong with shamans but it should not matter that much on what you pick.

Yeah fast Cav ranged units are the pest for you. But the infantry shooters are slow. Thats why i recomended Minos in my first post.. they are fast and can just run them down. And cant be stopped by Infantry.. with some clicks they run over an enemy infantry and charge into the Musketeers or Archers behind them. I dont know how good that works with Spawns. But since they are Monstrous Infantry too they shuld be able to do that also.

With the woodelves i have a tactic on some sieges. I charge into a breeched Gate and ignore the defeners.. Treeman walk over them to the right side and Treekin follow them.. that makes the AI to move all his infantry defenders behind them to hold them in combat.. if you move away from the gate far enough you got room for your Cavalry.. Centigors to run trough the gate and charge the Archers.

Or Plan C would be a Hero that can damage City walls on the Campaign map. I have no idea what Beastman Hero can do that but usualy every faction hase one. You select the Hero move him to a enemy City and some get the option to damage the Garnision and other have the option to damage the Walls. With such a damaged wall there are usualy 2 open holes in the Wall.. its much more easy to enter the city and reach the Ranged units.

[Muscarine]

Originally posted by TVMAN:

Originally posted by Muscarine:

I thought i'd do that, break them and spread corruption, but it says 60 turns for public disorder(which may very well attack me), and it's been over 20 turns i razed all their settlements, they don't rebuild, but somehow they still have a positive 80 income per turn despites this massive army.

Now that I think about it, you should consider just walking away as an option. Normally when I play Beastmen, I cut my way through Bretonnia and then rampage through the Border Princes, sacking/razing small towns for money in order to build up stacks. I start sacking the large cities once I have at least two stacks + two brayherds going, and by that point I'm normally heading back north through Black Fire Pass in order to meet up with the Chaos invasion.

You're in the Empire lands now, right? If I were you, I'd head south-southeast towards BFP while leaving a burning trail of destruction behind my herds. Since you're a horde faction, you're not really tied down to any one place. Go pick on some weaker factions for awhile and then come back for the Empire once you have the numbers.

Good point, i'll try to roam away and find other people to eat and cattles to rape

[Buzz Senpai Von Killington III]

Always starve out castles as beastmen. there are skills AND tech to reduce hold out time. AND agents. on my late game with morgur i had the tech the skills and a wizard that reduced siege time. a level 4 castle with a level 3 garrison building had 2 turns until it started attrition.

[Muscarine]

Originally posted by Buzz Von Killington III:

Always starve out castles as beastmen. there are skills AND tech to reduce hold out time. AND agents. on my late game with morgur i had the tech the skills and a wizard that reduced siege time. a level 4 castle with a level 3 garrison building had 2 turns until it started attrition.

Yes thank you, i've started to look into that following Sagranda's advice, i didn't realize it cound be so handy, it's a bit hard at first to figure how numbers will really affect the outcome.
For instance hold out time was a bit vague in my mind.

[sajaxom]

I apologize for the necro-post, but there's a particularly effective siege tactic with Beastmen that allows you to take on much larger garrison forces fairly early on. First off, Beastmen units break into essentially 3 categories: heavies (minotaur/chaos, gors), fast (harpies, centigors, hounds), and stalkers (ungor herd and raiders). An ungor based army is quite viable up through the mid game, so long as you have a core of heavies to be your hammer. The death of Beastmen seems to be focused range fire, so the goal is usually to surround the enemy as quickly as possible with melee forces.

My early strategy is the following:
- Stack all of your heavies out of tower range, rush the lord in to start on the gate. This is especially effective with Morghur.
- Put all of your stalkers on the opposite side of the field as your lord/heavies. They are invisible until they get within archer range, so the AI should stack their units on the other side. The more ungor you have, the better. If the gate is in the middle, stack them on each side. Once your lord is banging on the gate, send your ungor herds up to the wall and scale it with ladders. The goal is to maintain invisibility as long as possible. A quick force can often capture the gate before the AI has time to respond. Once these ungors get in, their job is to open up as many new fronts with the enemy as possible and to draw them away from the walls/gates.
- If you have them, send harpies to start clearing the walls. You really need 4-8 harpies to make this effective, but if you can manage it, they'll save you a lot of troops. Just drop 4 at a time on a single unit and watch it melt. Focus on archers/artillery, and avoid melee troops. This can also be done with focus firing ungor raiders, but harpies make it easier.
- Once the ranged threat is sufficiently diminished or off the walls, bring your heavies in to the gate your lord was banging on. They should crush anything that is left there, and then they can move on to hit the rest of the opposition in the back if they went to fight your ungors.

The same strategy works without walls, too. Just kite with your ungor herds while the enemy comes to meet your heavies. Then try to hit with everything all at once, ungors and fast units swarming from all sides while your heavies tear apart the middle.