Skaven Are not a GW original idea (and where this genre comes from as a whole)

[easterngames]

I've see it mentioned in a several posts that people think the skaven were for the most part a wholely orignal idea created by Game Workshop. Its obvious that most of the other races are just spins off classic fantasy cultures but most people don't know where the idea of the rat culture bent on subjugating the world of men came from.

Its actual introduced by Fritz Leiber in his Fahred and the Grey Mouser books. They also more or less invented the idea of fantasy board gaming, when they made the first one in 1937. Later TSR picked up the game and the setting for dungeons and dragons. So really the whole Warhammer miniature idea is way older then people might think.

The skaven, though not called that in the books, were a race of rats that gained intelligence. They dress in tiny little clothes and use tiny litlte weapons, but have potions with which they can upshift into human size, and downshift people into rat size. They have whole cities under the cities of man, much like the skaven, and have never ending political intrigue and power struggles just like the skaven in warhammer. They could have in theory upshifted their entire army into man sized, but didnt for a logical reason. The amount of food that would be required to sustain a city of 10 million human sized ratmen is untenable, while staying small sized means they could bide their time on scraps alone.

Of the three series of books, that in my opinion gave rise to D&D and Warhammer, Conan, The Fahred and Grey Mouser, and Tolkiens work; It is Fritz Leiber that most has the feel of warhammer. Its dark. Gritty. And while missing orcs and elves, really is worth reading.

[Warlord]

The only original idea was the wheel.

Deal with it, OP.

[Cyprinodon]

Originally posted by Warlord:

The only original idea was the wheel.

Deal with it, OP.

Pretty sure we got the wheel from watching dungbeetles roll ♥♥♥♥ around.

OP, while the warhammer setting is not original nor are the skaven. TT wargames have been getting played since the 1800s. During that time people would collect and battle historic armies and wars.

[stompie5]

Interesting OP. I never heard of these books, so thanks for sharing.

[Reverend Belial]

Very little in Warhammer is a GW original idea.

[NOSSSTRILS]

Original thought does not exist

[RED /(Weber)\]

Rat men are a trope in fantasy period. Besides I'm tired of gritty dark ♥♥♥♥.

[Ysthrall]

Interesting point OP, I must look up some Leiber.

"There is nothing new under the sun"

"...but there's a lot of old stuff we haven't found yet!"

[Toaster Maximus]

Did someone just realized this honestly, warhammer fantasy was always generic has it got and why it was fun has hell to play

[Toaster Maximus]

Originally posted by Reverend Belial:

Very little in Warhammer is a GW original idea.

N00bs am I right?

[Ysthrall]

However, if you have not encountered the original, or previous iterations of, any of the material, then you might well believe some bits to be original.

If your first experience of hydras is seeing them in the Dark Elf list, you might think them original.
If your first encounter with crazed anthromophic lizards is against the Lizardmen, then you might think of them as an original concept.

And if, as in the case of (me and several others), you were insufficiently familiar with the Leiber work, published mostly in the '60s and '70s, then you may well think that vicious back-stabbing undermining rat-folk were an orignal concept.

Is it surprising for people to go "I'm sure there's a few original ideas amongst all these achetypes..." and then to assign originality to those they do not recognise the inspiration for?

(Although I will admit having a fair amount of fun working out what is a rip-off of what. Several chaos champions in particular seemed lifted body and lack-of-soul from the Eternal Champion series)

How about the Chaos Dwarfs, what's the original material for them?

[Toaster Maximus]

Originally posted by Ysthrall:

However, if you have not encountered the original, or previous iterations of, any of the material, then you might well believe some bits to be original.

If your first experience of hydras is seeing them in the Dark Elf list, you might think them original.
If your first encounter with crazed anthromophic lizards is against the Lizardmen, then you might think of them as an original concept.

And if, as in the case of (me and several others), you were insufficiently familiar with the Leiber work, published mostly in the '60s and '70s, then you may well think that vicious back-stabbing undermining rat-folk were an orignal concept.

Is it surprising for people to go "I'm sure there's a few original ideas amongst all these achetypes..." and then to assign originality to those they do not recognise the inspiration for?

(Although I will admit having a fair amount of fun working out what is a rip-off of what. Several chaos champions in particular seemed lifted body and lack-of-soul from the Eternal Champion series)

How about the Chaos Dwarfs, what's the original material for them?

There has long been an evil race of dwarves in demon that use slave labor to build various things, and because dnd rips off myths sure its a rip off of something else