Comparing Tolkien Universe with Warhammer Universe is a mismatched comparison

[Rebelleader]

Two things a person should know about Tolkien to understand his universe are that he was a Medieval literature Scholar and he fought in World War 1 on the frontlines.

Some will say his religious beliefs were as or even more imortant, and that is not the case.

If there is one thing that hits you almost immediately about his Universe, it is that Things (all things) get worse not better. People (elves and dwavres as well) get smaller, weaker and uglier. Knowledge peole once had, they lose. Even technical feats such as the two trees or the silmarils can never be remade. Feanor reached a peak of technical skill in the beggining of his life he was never able to achieve again. As timegoes by things get worse and uglier. Only beings who were around at the begginning are able to get even close to the same levels of greatness.

You will ask "what does this have to do with medieval literature, world war 1 and warhammer." The answer is, Tolkien fought in World War 1 and had a horrified reaction to it (as did most people). He felt that technology, which was ugly and dirty, had gone too far. He remembered the beautiful and wonderful medieval world of his literature and figured that was a great time that was lost to horrible technology and modernization.

"Memba chivalry. Memba horses and damsels."

Thus the bad guys in his works were the dirty forces of modernization. He even stated at one point that the Nazgul scream as it dove was the sound he remembered from the war of a late war dive bomber. The orcs chop down trees and ruin the forests with their filth. There's even a passage about orks making mechanical weapons of war.

The Warhammer universe is the absolute opposite. The good guys have the technology and the bad guys are the savages. True, the Bretonnians are the chivalrus knight guys, but the bad guys have no technological abilities.

Warhammer comes from a modern belief that Modernization is a good thing. It helps much more than it hurts, Tolkien believed the opposite and it showed in his work.

[Ledha]

saying the bad guys have no technological abilities seems a bit short-sighted. The skaven put the empire to shame and are on par with the dwarves, and chaos have some awesome things (hellcanon anyone ? ). Concerning the bretonnian, they HAVE gunpowder and very advanced tehcnology... on their boats. They have a VERY powerful fleet

there is evil high tech races and good high tech races. Lizardmen and high elves, who are on the "good side" are nearly retarded on the technological side

[Drakenson]

Nice to see someone understands the undertones of LotR and the satire of Warhammer Fantasy.

[Dindomir]

Good read, actually.

I quite like the Warhammer world. It is a horrible place true, but life carries on all the same. Just one more reason Age of Sigmar is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ and the End Times as officialy told can go ♥♥♥♥ themselves. With Chaos Spawn.

[Zoie Shales]

Have you seen a Skaven Ratling Gun, Warpfire-Thrower, Doom Wheel, Or Just about anything invented by Clan Skryre? Pretty sure the bad guys have tech.

[Dindomir]

In a way, the Warhammer world is much more balanced and "real" than Tolkien's. Sure, I love Middle Earth and the Lord of the Rings, but the world as presented with mostly clear black and white lines loses a bit of its luster.

[Nick Naughty]

Think the chaos dwarves disagree.

[easytarget]

Escrito originalmente por Dindomir:

In a way, the Warhammer world is much more balanced and "real" than Tolkien's. Sure, I love Middle Earth and the Lord of the Rings, but the world as presented with mostly clear black and white lines loses a bit of its luster.

While I'm sure not intentional, this is the funniest thing I've ever read in this forum.

[Rebelleader]

Ok, so, the Skaven do have some, but not to the level of Empire and certainly not the dwarves. The chaos dwaves are literally just evil dwarves. The Chaos cannon are basically just magical cannons, less technology and more magic.

The heart of my argument is true. Modernization is seen as positive in Warhammer and negative in Tolkien Universe.

And if you want to see elves do evil, read The Silmarillion. Elves are not truly evil, but they do some terrible things because of pride and arrogance.

The stories are very good, but I can not be on board with the concept of nigh all powerful super angels living on a continent no more than five hundred miles away. But yet they allow evil Sauron to kill countless people, elves, and humans because... middle earth doesn't matter to them? I guess. Illuvatar gave them the earth to shepard and they pretty much go, "Middle earth sucks, lets pimp out this western continent. It takes begging for them to get involved to finally defeat Morgoth, but Sauron could not interest them less.

[RED /(Weber)\]

Escrito originalmente por Rebelleader:

Some will say his religious beliefs were as or even more imortant, and that is not the case.

You don't know anything about Tolkien and his work on LOTR then dude. Nothing. They were one of the most important parts of understanding LOTR.

Also you don't understand Warhammer either because I wouldn't call Brettonians chivalrous. Oppressive more like.

[Zoie Shales]

Escrito originalmente por Rebelleader:

Ok, so, the Skaven do have some, but not to the level of Empire and certainly not the dwarves.

"Some"?They made a giant "atomic" drill 1500 years before sigmar was born (sure it blew up and destroyed a good bit of skavenblight while the shock waves shook mountains and was heard from Lustria), their diabolic machines and inventivness are leages above the empires.

[Harukage]

Skaven have the most of the tech in the warhammer fantasy, ranging from what is basicaly a gatling cannons to "not a tactical nuke". One of their lords is literally "not a cyborg", because his body was crippled beyond repair, so he made himself mechanical prothethics and exoskeleton.

[Zoie Shales]

Escrito originalmente por Harukage:

Skaven have the most of the tech in the warhammer fantasy, ranging from what is basicaly a gatling cannons to "not a tactical nuke". One of their lords is literally "not a cyborg", because his body was crippled beyond repair, so he made himself mechanical prothethics and exoskeleton.

Yea, ikit Claw, he's going on 400 now I think.

[Rebelleader]

Escrito originalmente por RED Floyd /(Weber)\:

Escrito originalmente por Rebelleader:

Some will say his religious beliefs were as or even more imortant, and that is not the case.

You don't know anything about Tolkien and his work on LOTR then dude. Nothing. They were one of the most important parts of understanding LOTR.

Okay, you can't make that statement without backing it up with something without sounding ridiculous.

Tolkien was religious, but many of his writings in his universe was very against religious teachings.

Just one of many examples is his line in 'The Hobbit' where he states fish swam into the deep reaches of the Misty mountains, but after generations, the underground rivers dried up and the fish, through many generations, grew to adapt to the darkness. That is straight up evolution in a tolkien book.

Also, after the first few chapters of 'The Silmalrillion' God doesn't show up at all. And in the hobbit and the Lord of the rings the only 'angels'/maiar who show up are sauron, gandalf, and saruman. And they very, very rarely mention god/eru/illuvatar.

Basic, fundamental religious motiffs are missing from the universe. And Sin is watered down so much Jane Eyre mentions sin more.

This is not a universe built on a corner stone of religion.

[stompie5]

My understanding is Tolkien was a devote Catholic, so I'm pretty sure religion was one of his top priorities in life. Don't know how much influence it had on the books though.

[Trooper #900129-H]

I appreciate the thoughtfull analysis of Tolkiens work, however I do not believe we need to have such an in-depth debate about the matter.

While Warhammer has managed to build a rather impressive amount of lore to both provide a backdrop for the TT game, and simple reading-pleasure, we must not lose sight of what Warhammer started out as: A boardgame.

Tolkien on the other hand, created a universe, literally from the ground up, inlcuding a creation-of-life mythos, epic hero sagas, entire races, cultures, languages etc.
And while being influenced by several real-world cultures, managed to create a world of his own, with it's own unique rules and setting.

Tolkien was driven by a desire to create this mythical place where his stories can live and breathe.
Not to mention providing a masterclass in Linguistics and Poetry in the process!


Warhammer on the other hand, started out as a background story for a game. This includes satirical themes, over the top characters, hammy dialogue for the sake of hamminess, pop culture references, shameless exhaustion of existing fantasy tropes etc etc.
But also GrimDarkness, tragic stories, constant warefare and it's accompanying stories of various related atrocities


On a literary side of things though, I do not believe there can be any doubt as to which of the two universes is the more "accomplished" setting.


That being said, I find brilliance in two specific aspects of the Warhammer universe you won't find in the LOTR sagas:
1. Warhammer can be downright silly and deadly serious at the same time, and have it work!
2. Anyone can fight anybody at anytime. Including themselves.



Both universes still tick my boxes though.


EDIT:
It's early, as in one of those nights where you have yet to turn in while the sun comes up.
So in my sleep-deprived rambling, I forgot to get to the point:


I don't think Warhammer Fantasy and Tolkien's Middle Earth compare well.

Yes they are both Epic-Fantasy settings, there is magic, there are swords and fantastical races in both.
But at the same time you <need> to consider that both universes where created with radically different purposes in mind and marketing to widely different target audiences.


Both are good for what they are, top of their class even, but one will always fail when trying to do what the other does best.