Are all your lords stupid, irresolute or have maimed arms and legs?

[Frosty]

Hey all! I've recently uploaded a long overdue mod that revamps the starting traits of all lords and heroes. This is my first mod creation and I'm happy to say it has received some very positive reception here on Steam. But I'm always on the lookout for more people to try it and give feedback.

Have a look at the workshop page and subscribe: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=870099448

Here are some of the bullet points:
• Traits that are pure penalties, offer no gameplay variety, are too similar or are simply boring have been removed (e.g irresolute, easily distracted, melancholic).
• Pros/cons traits have been rebalanced so that the positives actually challenge the negatives. A character with a maimed leg gets extra defense in addition to the leadership buff. 
• Reinterpreted and remastered almost every innate trait (for instance the tongue-in-cheek "Handsome" is now "Warden" and better matches a peacekeeping playstyle).
• All changes are meant to preserve immersion and you will no longer get missile heroes that are blind. All changes are meant to be loreful which is why traits like Ancestral Blood and the Virtues differ from the rest.
• The mod only affects the original traits your lords and heroes and the AI's. Traits caused by campaign events (eg. harsh, untrustworthy) are outside of this mod's scope. LL traits will see refinement in future updates. 

Anyway, I'd love it if you had a look at the mod and be sure to let me know your thoughts/likes/dislikes/bug findings. 

/FrostyDemise

[Darkaiser]

I will have to look at this one.

[gachi is manly]

I kind of like the challenge of having a stupid and boring Lord with one arm and a peg leg.

[Frosty]

@Darkaiser
Feel free! :)

@Lyle Ugleman
Haha, I do too! The problem is that every lord in vanilla is stupid, boring and only has one arm and a peg leg. The new traits don't make the game less challenging, they are there to provide new and more varied specializations for heroes and generals.

If the choice is between Blood Feud (4+ melee attack 6+ leadership) and Boring (-5% campaign range), most people are never ever going to pick Boring. They pick Blood Feud because it makes their lord more viable in melee fights. The AI does the same. You end up with a situation that offers little choice, variation and nuance. That is what I'm trying to change :)

edit: fixed typos!

[gachi is manly]

^
True. I never buy the bad trait lords. I just wait until a decent one finally shows up on the list.

It's definitely a good idea for a mod.

Will it also prevent your heroes you gain through quests and such from spawning with bad traits? That would be nice.

[RCMidas]

Assuming what he's done is change the actual mechanical components of a trait, as opposed to generating a bunch of new ones that are then randomly assigned to people - which is by far the quicker and easier option - yes, Lyle, random heroes you gain will lack bad traits.

[Frosty]

@Lyle Ugleman
That is correct, it is still random on rewarded heroes but all traits are now handy or useful in someway so that issue is no more.

@RCMidas
Good assumption. However, I've actually covered both sides of what you are describing. I've designed new traits and and assigned them to all characters but also prohibited the preexisting starting traits from appearing.

[Pumis]

Originally posted by FrostyDemise:

@Darkaiser
Feel free! :)

@Lyle Ugleman
Haha, I do too! The problem is that every lord in vanilla is stupid, boring and only has one arm and a peg leg. The new traits don't make the game less challenging, they are there to provide new and more varied specializations for heroes and generals.

If the choice is between Blood Feud (4+ melee attack 6+ leadership) and Boring (-5% campaign range), most people are never ever going to pick Boring. They pick Blood Feud because it makes their lord more viable in melee fights. The AI does the same. You end up with a situation that offers little choice, variation and nuance. That is what I'm trying to change :)

edit: fixed typos!

Warhammer games are typically based on RNG where you can have ♥♥♥♥♥♥ luck and not. Your mod is basically cheat to get rid of RNG.

[Frosty]

@Pumis
As someone who has played TW:W for 800 hours more than you and spent 100+ hours making this mod, your argument is a gross distortion of the truth. That is not how CA has designed the trait system nor how I've designed my mod. I cannot comment in regards to tabletop, but a cannon misfiring randomly can be a source of fun. Frustrating traits are not good design, regardless if they are randomly generated or not. There is still a great deal of RNG in my mod as there are hundreds of traits and they are still randomly generated and are not equal in terms of strength. As a fervant Hearthstone player for years, rest assured that I'm well aware of the strengths and pitfalls of RNG.

For example I've kept maimed leg and it is still trait you bemoan getting. The vanilla trait Blood Feud is the gold standard and none of my new traits go past that in terms of power level. I would also not remotely find the word cheat appropiate in this context as all traits are available to the AI and you do not get any advantages that the AI can't use against you.


edit: typos

[Pumis]

Originally posted by FrostyDemise:

@Pumis
As someone who has played TW:W for 800 hours more than you and spent 100+ hours making this mod, your argument is a gross distortion of the truth. That is not how CA has designed the trait system nor how I've designed my mod. There is still a great deal of RNG in my mod as there are hundreds of traits and they are still randomly generated and are not equal in terms of strength. I cannot comment in regards to tabletop, but a cannon misfiring can be a source of fun. Frustrating traits are not.

For example I've kept maimed leg and it is still trait you bemoan getting. The vanilla trait Blood Feud is the gold standard and none of my new traits go past that in terms of power level. I would also not remotely find the word cheat appropiate in this context as all traits are available to the AI and you do not get any advantages that the AI can't use against you.
edit: fixed typos

"As someone who has played TW:W for 800 hours more than you and spent 100+ hours making this mod, your argument is a gross distortion of the truth"
So it's gross distortion of the truth to point out that your mod makes game easier? I don't care how many hours you have spended, it doesn't remove that fact.

". That is not how CA has designed the trait system nor how I've designed my mod."
Sure... All of those bad traits just came there by accident.

"here is still a great deal of RNG in my mod as there are hundreds of traits and they are still randomly generated and are not equal in terms of strength. "
In warhammer world RNG can ♥♥♥♥ you up. It's not choice between good and fairly good. IT's choice between being torned into abyss and awesome.

"For example I've kept maimed leg and it is still trait you bemoan getting."
Didn't maimed leg give extra defense bonus for all troops in you army? That is a good trait.

" I would also not remotely find the word cheat appropiate in this context as all traits are available to the AI "
They also have near infinite income and can create more stacks than you do. So why not make mod which gives the same for you? Since it's not cheat if A.I does it...

[Jabroni]

Why not just mod them so they are immortal gods that can insta kill anything? That sounds fun!

[Frosty]

Originally posted by Pumis:

"As someone who has played TW:W for 800 hours more than you and spent 100+ hours making this mod, your argument is a gross distortion of the truth"
So it's gross distortion of the truth to point out that your mod makes game easier? I don't care how many hours you have spended, it doesn't remove that fact.

". That is not how CA has designed the trait system nor how I've designed my mod."
Sure... All of those bad traits just came there by accident.

"here is still a great deal of RNG in my mod as there are hundreds of traits and they are still randomly generated and are not equal in terms of strength. "
In warhammer world RNG can ♥♥♥♥ you up. It's not choice between good and fairly good. IT's choice between being torned into abyss and awesome.

"For example I've kept maimed leg and it is still trait you bemoan getting."
Didn't maimed leg give extra defense bonus for all troops in you army? That is a good trait.

" I would also not remotely find the word cheat appropiate in this context as all traits are available to the AI "
They also have near infinite income and can create more stacks than you do. So why not make mod which gives the same for you? Since it's not cheat if A.I does it...

1. Again it does not make the game easier. The difficulty curve is fully preserved by having the remastered traits be available to the AI. edit: it is not Thunderdome where only one of you gets a weapon. The AI also gets one and will beat you up with it.

2. No, the bad traits are there intentionally. The system is just not very well designed.
If that is your opinion however, we have fundementally different views on what is fun and not.
You should try Dark Souls or a roguelike game, to see clever ways to penalize the player.

3. Yes, but the vanilla traits Boring and Blood Feud is not a choice between the abyss and awesome. Like I discussed with Lyle above, both are actually boring.

4. Again a gross distortion of the truth. Why would a hero having a maimed leg penalize the whole army? That design philosophy has never been part of my mod. There is no need for sarcasm or attempts to ridicule. I've made a mod that is entirely optional, you can use it or ignore it entirely.

5. You're not making any sense here. I've played and won on legendary difficulty, I'm not looking to change assymetrical difficulty.

[Pumis]

Originally posted by FrostyDemise:

Originally posted by Pumis:

"As someone who has played TW:W for 800 hours more than you and spent 100+ hours making this mod, your argument is a gross distortion of the truth"
So it's gross distortion of the truth to point out that your mod makes game easier? I don't care how many hours you have spended, it doesn't remove that fact.

". That is not how CA has designed the trait system nor how I've designed my mod."
Sure... All of those bad traits just came there by accident.

"here is still a great deal of RNG in my mod as there are hundreds of traits and they are still randomly generated and are not equal in terms of strength. "
In warhammer world RNG can ♥♥♥♥ you up. It's not choice between good and fairly good. IT's choice between being torned into abyss and awesome.

"For example I've kept maimed leg and it is still trait you bemoan getting."
Didn't maimed leg give extra defense bonus for all troops in you army? That is a good trait.

" I would also not remotely find the word cheat appropiate in this context as all traits are available to the AI "
They also have near infinite income and can create more stacks than you do. So why not make mod which gives the same for you? Since it's not cheat if A.I does it...

1. Again it does not make the game easier. The difficulty curve is fully preserved by having the remastered traits be available to the AI. edit: it is not Thunderdome where only one of you gets a weapon. The AI also gets one and will beat you up with it.

2. No, the bad traits are there intentionally. The system is just not very well designed.
If that is your opinion however, we have fundementally different views on what is fun and not.
You should try Dark Souls or a roguelike game, to see clever ways to penalize the player.

3. Yes, but the vanilla traits Boring and Blood Feud is not a choice between the abyss and awesome. Like I discussed with Lyle above, both are actually boring.

4. Again a gross distortion of the truth. Why would a hero having a maimed leg penalize the whole army? That design philosophy has never been part of my mod. There is no need for sarcasm or attempts to ridicule. I've made a mod that is entirely optional, you can use it or ignore it entirely.

5. You're not making any sense here. I've played and won on legendary difficulty, I'm not looking to change assymetrical difficulty.

1. So game is not easier when you cannot get bad traits?

2. Then stop saying that it's not what CA planned. It's well designed. I have played dark souls and warhammer francise is pretty close to it.

3-4.
" Why would a hero having a maimed leg penalize the whole army?"
increase in defence is penalize whole army? Let's see.. First of all, if this hero walks on foot, then maimed leg will slow him down and whole army with him. It can also affect morale if he is leading the army. Because handicapped hero isn't really inspiring.

" I've made a mod that is entirely optional, you can use it or ignore it entirely."
I know, I'm not telling you not to use it. I'm simply stating the fact that it's pretty much a cheat mod.

"5. You're not making any sense here. I've played and won on legendary difficulty, I'm not looking to change assymetrical difficulty."
The sense is, you're justifying cheating because A.I does it as well.

[Frosty]

Originally posted by Pumis:

1. So game is not easier when you cannot get bad traits?

2. Then stop saying that it's not what CA planned. It's well designed. I have played dark souls and warhammer francise is pretty close to it.

3-4.
" Why would a hero having a maimed leg penalize the whole army?"
increase in defence is penalize whole army? Let's see.. First of all, if this hero walks on foot, then maimed leg will slow him down and whole army with him. It can also affect morale if he is leading the army. Because handicapped hero isn't really inspiring.

" I've made a mod that is entirely optional, you can use it or ignore it entirely."
I know, I'm not telling you not to use it. I'm simply stating the fact that it's pretty much a cheat mod.

"5. You're not making any sense here. I've played and won on legendary difficulty, I'm not looking to change assymetrical difficulty."
The sense is, you're justifying cheating because A.I does it as well.

1-2. 80% of the vanilla starting traits are positive and the remaining 20% are meh. There are no bad starting traits per se. Boring is a not a bad trait. It is lukewarm as a game mechanic. It is dull, which befitting its name. A really bad trait would be a reverse Blood Feud, -4 melee attack -6 leadership. And if you want the player to intentionally recruit a hero who is terrible in melee, there has to be an incentive to it or a fun aspect to compensate.
edit: by the way, I fully intend to add more pros/cons traits to my mod and increase the rarity of the above decent traits. if your interpretation is that this only adds positive traits, you are mistaken.

3-4. That is subjective. A 15% reduction like in the vanilla version is a slight limp, and if you have a lord who is still charging a group of Chaos trolls, I have no doubt the state troopers behind him will be put to shame if they don't charge with him. You are also arguing against yourself now. You are saying a commander can't have a negative trait, one of the vanilla traits, because he would not be inspiring and that would break the sense of verisimilitude.
Which is a point I can see reason with, which is why I don't permit a trait like Blind on a hero that uses ranged weapons.


5. If your intention is to simply disregard the new trait system as cheat, this debate is no longer interesting. I can clearly tell you haven't even tested my mod because the ability to get a hero that hits 2% harder more frequently does not change the outcome of any battle in the entire game. Play the vanilla game with just my mod, on legendary, and see how much it helps you to win the campaign.

[Pumis]

Originally posted by FrostyDemise:

Originally posted by Pumis:

1. So game is not easier when you cannot get bad traits?

2. Then stop saying that it's not what CA planned. It's well designed. I have played dark souls and warhammer francise is pretty close to it.

3-4.
" Why would a hero having a maimed leg penalize the whole army?"
increase in defence is penalize whole army? Let's see.. First of all, if this hero walks on foot, then maimed leg will slow him down and whole army with him. It can also affect morale if he is leading the army. Because handicapped hero isn't really inspiring.

" I've made a mod that is entirely optional, you can use it or ignore it entirely."
I know, I'm not telling you not to use it. I'm simply stating the fact that it's pretty much a cheat mod.

"5. You're not making any sense here. I've played and won on legendary difficulty, I'm not looking to change assymetrical difficulty."
The sense is, you're justifying cheating because A.I does it as well.

1-2. 80% of the vanilla starting traits are positive and the remaining 20% are meh. There are no bad starting traits per se. Boring is a not a bad trait. It is lukewarm as a game mechanic. It is dull, which befitting its name. A really bad trait would be a reverse Blood Feud, -4 melee attack -6 leadership. And if you want the player to intentionally recruit a hero who is terrible in melee, there has to be an incentive to it or a fun aspect to compensate.
edit: by the way, I fully intend to add more pros/cons traits to my mod and increase the rarity of the above decent traits. if your interpretation is that this only adds positive traits, you are mistaken.

3-4. That is subjective. A 15% reduction like in the vanilla version is a slight limp, and if you have a lord who is still charging a group of Chaos trolls, I have no doubt the state troopers behind him will be put to shame if they don't charge with him. You are also arguing against yourself now. You are saying a commander can't have a negative trait, one of the vanilla traits, because he would not be inspiring and that would break the sense of verisimilitude.
Which is a point I can see reason with, which is why I don't permit a trait like Blind on a hero that uses ranged weapons.


5. If your intention is to simply disregard the new trait system as cheat, this debate is no longer interesting. I can clearly tell you haven't even tested my mod because the ability to get a hero that hits 2% harder more frequently does not change the outcome of any battle in the entire game. Play the vanilla game with just my mod, on legendary, and see how much it helps you to win the campaign.

1-2. 80 being positive and 20% meh doesn't change the fact that it's still RNG that you hate.
"There are no bad starting traits per se. "
Actually there are.

3-4. Or they willl simply think that the lord is total idiot. And be even more demoralized.
" which is why I don't permit a trait like Blind on a hero that uses ranged weapons."
It's fantasy world. I wouldn't be surprised it there was actually blind ranged hero.

5. You are dismissing criticism now. I don't lke to play cheat mods.

[Frosty]

@Pumis I've addressed all your concerns but I cannot change a such a dismissive outlook on this type of mod. I can only repeat what I said: try my mod on the hardest difficulty and you will see that you are making false assumptions. Thanks for the debate.