Faction Leader Campaign Bonuses: Do you think some need to be rebalanced?

[Corvus_Alt1]

For example, consider the Empire. After the most recent patch, it seems like you'd be crazy to pick anyone other than Balthasar Gelt nowadays. Sure, Kral Franz's universal campaign movement bonus and Greatsword and Reiksguard upkeep cost reduction is still good, but it hardly seems comparable to Balthasar Gelt's updated bonus of both a bonus wizard, cheaper wizard upkeep, and a godly +10 armor for all units. Personally, I think Karl Franz could use a slightly stronger campaign bonus, maybe something like a small, universal leadership bonus or something.

What do you think? Not just for this example, but for the leaders of the other factions? Do you think some of the faction campaign bonuses could use some tweaking?

[Tropicdragon]

Newer Leaders seem to have better ones than the vanilla or even early additions.

[harleyquinrazer]

No one wanted Gelt prior to his universal +10 armour buff, so it was done deliberately to get players to use him from the beginning. Everything else about him wasn't attractive enough to warrant starting with him while many players didn't even bother using him in their campaigns.

Kemmler could use a boost, he's both unpopular and has terrible starting units together with an inferior campaign buff compared to Mannfred and Ghorst.

Between Isabella and Vlad, there's no contest. +25% weapon damage for ALL vampires vs. a measly +5% campaign movement boost for lords for the former and latter respectively. Careless players who didn't check what Isabella offers when starting with her deserve the handicap when they play as the von Carsteins.

Azhag has a similar problem with Kemmler, extra income from sacking is nice but pales when compared to Grimgor's upkeep reduction bonuses.

Grombrindal has a similar position to Gelt when playing as the dwarfs, only difference being Grombrindal's campaign line buffs are so ludicrously strong players would be shooting themselves in the foot not picking him from the beginning especially as Thorgrim is easy to unlock and Ungrim doesn't offer a compelling package to warrant starting with him.

Kholek's tough to unlock, so I started with him as Chaos. Archaon has arguably the better campaign buffs but Kholek is so strong and Archaon relatively easy to unlock that Kholek's campaign bonus is worth using.

Not much experience with the beastmen, although from what I can tell it's just a different starting position for the three lords. Morgur trades minotaurs for chaos spawn because of his campaign specialty but that's about it.

Bretonnians and Wood Elves have almost completely different playstyles depending on which legendary lord is picked so nothing much to balance in terms of their starting campaign bonus.

[Chibbity]

The thing about Gelt (and wizards in general) is that they are really inferior to artillery as far as aoe damage goes, and they get whipped like noodle armed school girls in CC by just about anything.

Having an enemy melee lord/hero plowing through your lines with nothing to contest him is a serious issue, especially in the early game where you won't have specialist units, heroes, or mass numbers to make up for it.

So yeah, I don't really agree Gelt is op compared to the other Empire lords due to his inability to counter the far more common melee oriented lords. He has a nice faction wide armor buff and a decent in battle buff. That's about it really. (Although I still play him, because he's cool as ♥♥♥♥.) I can't really say much about the other faction lords as I mainly play Empire.

[Corvus_Alt1]

True, Gelt was not at all popular without that armor buff, and I am really glad that he now does have that +10 armor buff. Thing is, now I can't imagine not taking it. I mean, seriously, it's really hard not picking that up now. But I suppose having extra campaign map movement and lower upkeep costs for some valuable units is also good. I'm just not convinced it's on par with the +10 armor. Yes, Karl Franz being a strong melee hero is another factor, but starting with a better hero is not, in my opinion at least, worth giving up a universal armor buff. If Karl Franz had a slightly larger upkeep cost reduction or something along those lines, I would probably be more comfortable choosing either Gelt or Karl Franz.

Also, I should point out that wizards can be really valuable for their ability to make buildings so much cheaper, not to mention the early blue skills that increase local income. Seriously, having lots of wizards that are cheaper to maintain makes for a truly amazing economic boost. So yeah, Gelt can really be a strong lord over all.

Yeah, I remember glancing at the von Carsteins briefly, but completely forgot how badly unbalanced Vlad is compared to Isabella. Seriously, Vlad von Carstein deserves a hell of a lot better considering how important to the lore he is. And alas, I cannot remember the rest of the Vampire Count bonuses.

And really, Grombrindal is that good? I clearly have to look at the dwarves (or is it dwarfs?) again.

At least with Bretonnia and the Wood Elves you have a clear set of incomparables to work with, and incomparables are always good for balance in the long run, so that's actually pretty decent.

[Gray Riders]

Originally posted by harleyquinrazer:

Between Isabella and Vlad, there's no contest. +25% weapon damage for ALL vampires vs. a measly +5% campaign movement boost for lords for the former and latter respectively. Careless players who didn't check what Isabella offers when starting with her deserve the handicap when they play as the von Carsteins.

Vlad has a worse version of the generic trait while Isabella gets an incredibly powerful one. I assume they thought Vlad's much better starting army was a balancing factor, and he can knock out Drakenhof on turn 2 (impossible for Isabella since she has no Siege Attacker), but it's still clear which is the better choice.

Azhag has a similar problem with Kemmler, extra income from sacking is nice but pales when compared to Grimgor's upkeep reduction bonuses.

Azhag has a bad trait and a terrible starting army. It's sad.

[Queco Jones21]

I agree. Most Vanilla lords need a slight buff, much like Gelt got. I still like choosing Franz just for fun.

Grombrindal as 2 huge bonus's going for him from the start. 1 is the event where you can choose a bonus for a certain amount of turns (discount on building, faster research, or buffing grombrindal to all hell) and his Blue tree is just insane. It buffs the entire faction.

For the Greenskins, I just have to choose Grimgor.

Need to play a Von Carstein campaign, but am missing a few achievements for the VC so I am dragging my feet to starting a campaign with them. So I can't say much about them. At leadt before the Old World edition you'd be crazy to not choose Vlad to start the VC with.

[Grakor]

Originally posted by Gray Riders:

Azhag has a bad trait and a terrible starting army. It's sad.

He's also a bad leader to start with. His stats are actually worse than a generic Orc Warboss. Combined with an inferior army and a relations boost to a faction that isn't anywhere even near you...

I actually think Azhag is a worse starting lord than Kemmler. Just, ya know, Azhag can get better in the long run.

[Gray Riders]

Originally posted by Grakor:

He's also a bad leader to start with. His stats are actually worse than a generic Orc Warboss. Combined with an inferior army and a relations boost to a faction that isn't anywhere even near you...

I actually think Azhag is a worse starting lord than Kemmler. Just, ya know, Azhag can get better in the long run.

Kemmler has some decent starting units with the wraiths. Azhag? He gets some tier 3 units and goblin archers. Kemmler's also got the advantage that you can get Mannfred really early if you start with him (and unlike Ghorst he's free).
I recall the devs saying they're looking at Kemmler, but Azhag doesn't seem to get as many complaints and is less likely to be fixed. If he actually started with his magic (like how Karl Franz runs around hitting people with Ghal Maraz before technically receiving it) he'd actually be pretty decent, I think.
*
Some thoughts I've had on buffing certain Lord's starting traits:
1: Karl Franz gives a starting relations boost to other Empire factions as a representation of his skill as a statesman.
2: Vlad gives a small upkeep reduction to all units. It's kind of strong, yeah, but it's competing with Isabella's crazy buffs.
3: Azhag needs bigger numbers for his looting bonus, and perhaps for his Vampire Count relations bonus.

[Bladiumdragon]

There was a Buffdate? When?

[harleyquinrazer]

I thought Get reduced wizard upkeep and increased wizard capacity, when did he get a free starting wizard?

The set-piece ambush battle gives a wizard as a quest reward so all talk about how Gelt is better because of cheaper wizards doesn't make sense.

Azhag can only cast magic because of his crown so that won't change. He needs a revamp of his starting units to make him more appealing.

Personally I think Vlad could use something like Vargheist upkeep reduction on top of his current benefits to even out Isabella's bonus.

[Lampros]

Originally posted by Chibbity:

The thing about Gelt (and wizards in general) is that they are really inferior to artillery as far as aoe damage goes, and they get whipped like noodle armed school girls in CC by just about anything.

Having an enemy melee lord/hero plowing through your lines with nothing to contest him is a serious issue, especially in the early game where you won't have specialist units, heroes, or mass numbers to make up for it.

So yeah, I don't really agree Gelt is op compared to the other Empire lords due to his inability to counter the far more common melee oriented lords. He has a nice faction wide armor buff and a decent in battle buff. That's about it really. (Although I still play him, because he's cool as ♥♥♥♥.) I can't really say much about the other faction lords as I mainly play Empire.

Can't you get a combat Captain to go with Gelt? I guess that's not until later in the game. I don't have this problem, as I tend to prefer combat Lords anyways precisely for the reasons you elaborate.

[Lampros]

Originally posted by Queco Jones21:

Grombrindal as 2 huge bonus's going for him from the start. 1 is the event where you can choose a bonus for a certain amount of turns (discount on building, faster research, or buffing grombrindal to all hell) and his Blue tree is just insane. It buffs the entire faction.

I agree that Grombrindal's blue tree is indeed amazing, but Legendary Lords can always be unlocked later. Or is he hard to unlock?

Which reminds me actually: Is there a guide or even in-game description on how to unlock all the Lords anywhere?

[RED /(Weber)\]

Originally posted by harleyquinrazer:

No one wanted Gelt prior to his universal +10 armour buff, so it was done deliberately to get players to use him from the beginning. Everything else about him wasn't attractive enough to warrant starting with him while many players didn't even bother using him in their campaigns.

Kemmler could use a boost, he's both unpopular and has terrible starting units together with an inferior campaign buff compared to Mannfred and Ghorst.

Between Isabella and Vlad, there's no contest. +25% weapon damage for ALL vampires vs. a measly +5% campaign movement boost for lords for the former and latter respectively. Careless players who didn't check what Isabella offers when starting with her deserve the handicap when they play as the von Carsteins.

Azhag has a similar problem with Kemmler, extra income from sacking is nice but pales when compared to Grimgor's upkeep reduction bonuses.

Grombrindal has a similar position to Gelt when playing as the dwarfs, only difference being Grombrindal's campaign line buffs are so ludicrously strong players would be shooting themselves in the foot not picking him from the beginning especially as Thorgrim is easy to unlock and Ungrim doesn't offer a compelling package to warrant starting with him.

Kholek's tough to unlock, so I started with him as Chaos. Archaon has arguably the better campaign buffs but Kholek is so strong and Archaon relatively easy to unlock that Kholek's campaign bonus is worth using.

Not much experience with the beastmen, although from what I can tell it's just a different starting position for the three lords. Morgur trades minotaurs for chaos spawn because of his campaign specialty but that's about it.

Bretonnians and Wood Elves have almost completely different playstyles depending on which legendary lord is picked so nothing much to balance in terms of their starting campaign bonus.

Morgur actually apparently spreads corruption at a faster rate than Khazrak, he also has no wounded-in-battle cooldown, if hes killed in battle you can recruit him instantly next turn, also likewise his starting position makes the game perhaps a bit easier because only two factions are bearing on you immediately rather than several different ones.

[Di]

Originally posted by Lampros:

Originally posted by Queco Jones21:

Grombrindal as 2 huge bonus's going for him from the start. 1 is the event where you can choose a bonus for a certain amount of turns (discount on building, faster research, or buffing grombrindal to all hell) and his Blue tree is just insane. It buffs the entire faction.

I agree that Grombrindal's blue tree is indeed amazing, but Legendary Lords can always be unlocked later. Or is he hard to unlock?

Which reminds me actually: Is there a guide or even in-game description on how to unlock all the Lords anywhere?

if you go to recruit, mousing over the lord will show you what you have to do to recruit them. they're greyed out by they're on the list from turn 1

[Lampros]

Originally posted by Di:

Originally posted by Lampros:

I agree that Grombrindal's blue tree is indeed amazing, but Legendary Lords can always be unlocked later. Or is he hard to unlock?

Which reminds me actually: Is there a guide or even in-game description on how to unlock all the Lords anywhere?

if you go to recruit, mousing over the lord will show you what you have to do to recruit them. they're greyed out by they're on the list from turn 1

Thank you!