Arena - Gear points per Tier

[angrytrex]

Sooo I like the new armor a lot. It's nice looking and fills some much needed holes in the expert tier armor sets. I was really excited to see the new expert thigh armor with the last few updates. I was even more excited this update to see shin armor that actually works with the new thigh armor.

My chief complaint though is you can't really use it. If I gear up one of my fighers in full coverage expert armor and all the proper underlayers, it costs 30/30 points which means I can bring my fists (which should cost 10 points) or the broom into the arena as a weapon.

It seems like the gear point cap is there to inflate the difficulity, but it doesn't serve this purpose well. The AI is going to die horrible deaths regardless of how much gear I bring, so all this does is add irritation in that we cannot really wear the full suits of armor at the proper tier. This applies to the lower tiers as well, but the Expert tier is the biggest offender by far.

Gear is already restricted by tier as is given that certain pieces = certain tiers which I think works just fine.

At master it doesn't matter due to the availabilty of full coverage plate armor and 60 points (which might as well be unlimited).

With all this new piecemeal armor, should we relax these draconian loadout restrictions so that we can actually use the armor when it's relevent? I would like to see this as well as beefing up the protection/layers and quality of gear the opponent fighters bring in accordingly

One other point that I forgot to mention is that the system right now also heavily favors dual wield because you can cheat on the offhand weapon. If I am at 27/30 points, I can equip two 3.5 point swords for 34/30 points, but I cannot equip a 6 point Poleaxe. While this looks like a bug, i would hate to see it get fixed because of the loadout consequences.

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You can actually use the new expert set + greaves with an expert tier weapon (haldberd or polehammer) along with full padding, you just can't use any chainmail or a coat. I think the point restrictions are a good thing, even just 5 points higher would cause imbalance.

[angrytrex]

Originally posted by the edgy swordsman:

You can actually use the new expert set + greaves with an expert tier weapon (haldberd or polehammer) along with full padding, you just can't use any chainmail or a coat. I think the point restrictions are a good thing, even just 5 points higher would cause imbalance.

You say 5 points would unbalance things but give no expalantion of how. I find your statement illogical based on the fact that this would both effect player and opponent characters equally in allowing them to both field more complete sets of equipment.

I could even go as far as saying it would make things more challenging because the AI tends to end up on the wrong end of the polehammer more often, and it would benefit from additional armor more than the PC

[Tempered]

Originally posted by angrytrex:

Sooo I like the new armor a lot. It's nice looking and fills some much needed holes in the expert tier armor sets. I was really excited to see the new expert thigh armor with the last few updates. I was even more excited this update to see shin armor that actually works with the new thigh armor.

My chief complaint though is you can't really use it. If I gear up one of my fighers in full coverage expert armor and all the proper underlayers, it costs 30/30 points which means I can bring my fists (which should cost 10 points) or the broom into the arena as a weapon. .......

I pretty much agree with everything you said, but what I think the devs are trying to accomplish with the expert point limit, is to restrict the high end weapons to the master arena yet still allow them at expert but with an armor penalty. It may very well be that the real target of the point system is your hirelings and not so much the player.

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5 more points would allow me to put on much more pieces of armor as a shield user, and now I can use a poleaxe (the best weapon for expert matches imo) along with almost full coverage in plate armor, full padding underneath, and the 3 point expert helmet which covers the entire head with very little compromise.

From what I have seen, the AI does not utilize the full amount of points. You still have expert combatants with zero plate armor on them besides a helmet, they don't use cuisses and seem to prioritize chainmail over padding. My point is that the AI in expert could be made harder if they chose armor more intelligently instead of increasing the point limit.

[angrytrex]

Originally posted by the edgy swordsman:

From what I have seen, the AI does not utilize the full amount of points. You still have expert combatants with zero plate armor on them besides a helmet, they don't use cuisses and seem to prioritize chainmail over padding. My point is that the AI in expert could be made harder if they chose armor more intelligently instead of increasing the point limit.

The AI would have to be adjusted to use the full availability of poijnts, layer armor, and use armor above normal quality at times, but I think the outcome would be better and folks would'nt complain as much about how thier sword annihilates plate users.

[Cason]

I pretty much agree. I use the low cost maul for the most part so i don't get much of a problem. I see what your saying though.

[NachoDawg]

Look at it from a gameplay perspective.

When you get an opponent with no armor on a particular place, like the head, where do you aim? What tactic do you adapt to defeat the opponent? I think the point system allows more gameplay, not less. You (and by the game's philosphy, the enemy) are forced to pick and chose your weaknesses and strenghts. Means there's more to do and think about in the game.

If everyone got to go in with the max gear the tier allows then everyone would, and the differences would basically just be cosmetic. That doesn't sound like a good idea.

Instead I want to go in a fight and analyse my opponent and figure out his weakness. I want my shield hireling to forego the breast plate for better gear elsewhere since his main body is protected by the shield. I don't want everyone to walk around like boring slow tanks that all look the same.

[apocal43]

I do like that on expert most of the AIs aren't wearing full suits of armor, just because I like to hunt for legs and open-faced helms with my pole-axe. That said, gearing yourself at the appropriate tier shouldn't be overly restrictive but I do think there should be a choice made between full armor at the appropriate tier and best arms at the appropropriate tier.

[Cason]

Originally posted by NachoDawg:

Look at it from a gameplay perspective.

When you get an opponent with no armor on a particular place, like the head, where do you aim? What tactic do you adapt to defeat the opponent? I think the point system allows more gameplay, not less. You (and by the game's philosphy, the enemy) are forced to pick and chose your weaknesses and strenghts. Means there's more to do and think about in the game.

If everyone got to go in with the max gear the tier allows then everyone would, and the differences would basically just be cosmetic. That doesn't sound like a good idea.

Instead I want to go in a fight and analyse my opponent and figure out his weakness. I want my shield hireling to forego the breast plate for better gear elsewhere since his main body is protected by the shield. I don't want everyone to walk around like boring slow tanks that all look the same.

I don't really ever see the AI crouch during a swing to hit the player character below the waist at all.

[apocal43]

Originally posted by Cason-san:

I don't really ever see the AI crouch during a swing to hit the player character below the waist at all.

As far as I can tell, the AI doesn't crouch at all. They still manage hits on legs though, partly if you're pulling away from close up and they have a short-range weapon like a mace or war hammer.

[angrytrex]

I may be reading more into it, but I think the gist of it is that the AI doesn't strategize.

It doesn't go "hey look an unarmored ________, i'm going to aim for that spot"

[Cason]

Originally posted by angrytrex:

I may be reading more into it, but I think the gist of it is that the AI doesn't strategize.

It doesn't go "hey look an unarmored ________, i'm going to aim for that spot"

Sounds about right to me. To be fair though whenever they get a sword and flail widely it messes me up every time.

[Iron Prankster]

Originally posted by angrytrex:

The AI would have to be adjusted to use the full availability of poijnts, layer armor, and use armor above normal quality at times, but I think the outcome would be better and folks would'nt complain as much about how thier sword annihilates plate users.

Plate users use gambeson with the plate all the time. No issue with lack of padding there. Gambesons work great against slashing damage even without anything over the top of them. Of course anything over the top of them is a huge improvement regardless.

Originally posted by Cason-san:

Originally posted by angrytrex:

I may be reading more into it, but I think the gist of it is that the AI doesn't strategize.

It doesn't go "hey look an unarmored ________, i'm going to aim for that spot"

Sounds about right to me. To be fair though whenever they get a sword and flail widely it messes me up every time.

Yeah if the AI went for your unarmored bits, the game's challenge would go way up. And I agree re: sword users. They are dangerous. They are my most dreaded opponent, followed by shield users with maces. I do not like going up against either of those match-ups as there are no natural counters to them. Everything else is easy-mode.

My favorite is when I can stab a lower-armored shield user over and over from the shield side in the gut, so from their body's left. Moment they have armor though, bigger shield and maxed out shield skills, this goes out the window.

[apocal43]

Originally posted by Mistar Red:

Yeah if the AI went for your unarmored bits, the game's challenge would go way up. And I agree re: sword users. They are dangerous. They are my most dreaded opponent, followed by shield users with maces. I do not like going up against either of those match-ups as there are no natural counters to them. Everything else is easy-mode.

I'm not trying to brag, but I've found that keeping range with a polearm or two-hander generally counters one-handed swordsmen. The two-hander sword-wielders have the usual issue of overcommitting at the wrong ranges.

Originally posted by Mistar Red:

My favorite is when I can stab a lower-armored shield user over and over from the shield side in the gut, so from their body's left. Moment they have armor though, bigger shield and maxed out shield skills, this goes out the window.

Yeah, the plate+gambeson+shield combo is why I swear by the polehammer and knockdowns to finish fights.

[Cason]

I think someone recomended back stepping behind them and hitting them in the back. I tried it once and it worked but I would have to give it more of a try to see how usefull it was.