Aiming swings?

[SeattlePoliceman]

I've seen this discussed before but was not able to find a super sufficient answer. My main issue is fighting people with shields. My guy always seems to aim directly at their shields meanwhile their head is wide open. I've done some experimenting with mouse movments but it still seems to be almost compeletly random. Any help is appreciated.

[Larus]

As of right now you can't aim your swings. If you want to to go past shields you're better off using a thrust to the head or leg. Overhead attacks work as well, they can be aimed too by mouse movements.

Most reliable tactic is still using your fist imo, assuming you mastered the art of face hugging.

[SeattlePoliceman]

Originally posted by Larus:

As of right now you can't aim your swings. If you want to to go past shields you're better off using a thrust to the head or leg. Overhead attacks work as well, they can be aimed too by mouse movements.

Most reliable tactic is still using your fist imo, assuming you mastered the art of face hugging.

Thank you for the help. Also, did this game get way harder recently? I came back to it after about 3 months away and I can barely win a fight in arena mode.

[White ⁧⁧Wolf]

It's about timing and distance. If you keep hitting their shields you must change one or both of the aforementioned things.

[Tony]

You can influence horizontal swing height by using footwork, torso movements, etc. There is a random element to horizontal swings (they can go low to high, high to low, etc.) but all horizontal swings - regardless of the arc - have the same midpoint height if you don't do anything to influence their height.

[Solinarius☕]

Originally posted by Dingdong09:

You can't aim swings, at all, some people think it has something to do with how close you keep the reticle to your character but it does not. The only thing you can do to control your swing height is to crouch during a swing, usually I tap it just for a moment because it drops your swing and then brings it up again which makes it harder for the AI to block it. That or go full crouch and hit them in the legs, its especially nice against big shields.

You can aim stabs and overheads, as has been mentioned. The game hasn't gotten harder its just you're using old strategies, really there's two new strategies worth working with:
1. Long weapons with pretty fast attack, spear+shield is the "intro" weapon of this type, then at expert/master you can pick basically any polearm two hander or greatsword, they're all good. If the AI is being passive keep stabbing them with no risk to yourself, just drain their health while they keep trying to dodge you.
2. Mace+shield, in this case do not try to swing very much and just do stab and short swing attacks. The goal is to keep your shield turned towards the enemy and then thrust in a diagonal fashion (right to left) as you advance. Given the perk that allows you to keep blocking while attacking you can win almost every match with relative ease, I attached a video of how to do it.

There's some other stuff that works pretty nice in the low tiers like the quarterstaff, but most other weapon combinations are no good.

So negative and inflexible, bruh! Horizontal swings have a random component, but it can be controlled by using feints to pick the desired trajectory. At that point, it's just muscle memory that lets you use footwork and draw to guide the swing and effectively... AIM it. It's even easier to do this with left-to-right swings because their trajectories don't change much.

I can see where you're coming from if you never experiment or do routine practice. However, so much of what you wrote is simply false. The fact that you're condoning the path of least resistance through such juvenile tactics as crouch swinging and thrust spam and shooting down legitimate discipline says you still have a lot to learn.

[monkeyhicks]

for me RtL swing starts relitivly high so if you take a left step so your at a 30 degree angle at the beginning of the swing you can catch their head and send them flying. also LtR swings tend to end their motion high so i would do the same step and positioning just time it for when the swing ends. thats at least how i taught myself to aim i never watched any tutorials.

[Solinarius☕]

Originally posted by Dingdong09:

Horizontal swings aren't bad per se but its a lot of guess work as they are much, much easier to block than stabs, you can occasionally get them on a horizontal when stepping past them (see video) but I don't recommend it because you're just as likely to be hit back. That's beside the fact that I wouldn't recommend it simply because if you open up with a swing the AI will just step back and out of it, with stabs you can catch them, stun them and finish the job. Basically I would only recommend right hand swings as follow ups to stabs.

The conclusions I came to are from experimentation, in previous iterations of the game I used a much more diverse amount of weapons, now I find consistency in those two strategies. If you want to play in a way thats less effective i have nothing against that, I sometimes try out sub-optimal weapons also. It is not juvenile to find winning strategies in a game, stab spamming is historically accurate anyways (a phalanx was nothing but stab-spam) and crouch swinging is only necessary because there's a lack of height control on swings, it wouldn't be needed if there was height control.

They're not bad at all. They're one of the most effective attacks to use when riposting unless you have a stabby polearm. Even then, they're brutally effective when riposting with the heavy polearms of Expert tier.

I'm sure thrust spam will always be effective because, as you said, thrusting weapons and thrusting in itself are proven in historical combat and warfare. What I'm saying is it's decieving. What happens down the road when NPCs can't be hypnotized by thrust spam? What about against players? Like I said: path of least resistance. Good fundamentals in footwork, attack technique, defense, and even camera control aren't needed to win, but those things definitely make for a better player.

[monkeyhicks]

Originally posted by Solinarius:

Originally posted by Dingdong09:

Horizontal swings aren't bad per se but its a lot of guess work as they are much, much easier to block than stabs, you can occasionally get them on a horizontal when stepping past them (see video) but I don't recommend it because you're just as likely to be hit back. That's beside the fact that I wouldn't recommend it simply because if you open up with a swing the AI will just step back and out of it, with stabs you can catch them, stun them and finish the job. Basically I would only recommend right hand swings as follow ups to stabs.

The conclusions I came to are from experimentation, in previous iterations of the game I used a much more diverse amount of weapons, now I find consistency in those two strategies. If you want to play in a way thats less effective i have nothing against that, I sometimes try out sub-optimal weapons also. It is not juvenile to find winning strategies in a game, stab spamming is historically accurate anyways (a phalanx was nothing but stab-spam) and crouch swinging is only necessary because there's a lack of height control on swings, it wouldn't be needed if there was height control.

They're not bad at all. They're one of the most effective attacks to use when riposting unless you have a stabby polearm. Even then, they're brutally effective when riposting with the heavy polearms of Expert tier.

I'm sure thrust spam will always be effective because, as you said, thrusting weapons and thrusting in itself are proven in historical combat and warfare. What I'm saying is it's decieving. What happens down the road when NPCs can't be hypnotized by thrust spam? What about against players? Like I said: path of least resistance. Good fundamentals in footwork, attack technique, defense, and even camera control aren't needed to win, but those things definitely make for a better player.

i cannot wait till they install an online mode so that we can see how good some of these "experts" really are. like you said we are all good vs ai but fighting AI and a real person will be compleatly diffrent. even a bad player can confuse or shock a good player by making bad moves and get lucky.

[Larus]

Yeah, it also would be much easier to analyse which strategies and weapons are truly overpowered. Don't think we can expect an online mode within the next 1 to 2 years though :/

[Roryn]

Originally posted by Dingdong09:

Originally posted by Solinarius:

So negative and inflexible, bruh! Horizontal swings have a random component, but it can be controlled by using feints to pick the desired trajectory. At that point, it's just muscle memory that lets you use footwork and draw to guide the swing and effectively... AIM it. It's even easier to do this with left-to-right swings because their trajectories don't change much.

I can see where you're coming from if you never experiment or do routine practice. However, so much of what you wrote is simply false. The fact that you're condoning the path of least resistance through such juvenile tactics as crouch swinging and thrust spam and shooting down legitimate discipline says you still have a lot to learn.

Horizontal swings aren't bad per se but its a lot of guess work as they are much, much easier to block than stabs, you can occasionally get them on a horizontal when stepping past them (see video) but I don't recommend it because you're just as likely to be hit back. That's beside the fact that I wouldn't recommend it simply because if you open up with a swing the AI will just step back and out of it, with stabs you can catch them, stun them and finish the job. Basically I would only recommend right hand swings as follow ups to stabs.

The conclusions I came to are from experimentation, in previous iterations of the game I used a much more diverse amount of weapons, now I find consistency in those two strategies. If you want to play in a way thats less effective i have nothing against that, I sometimes try out sub-optimal weapons also. It is not juvenile to find winning strategies in a game, stab spamming is historically accurate anyways (a phalanx was nothing but stab-spam) and crouch swinging is only necessary because there's a lack of height control on swings, it wouldn't be needed if there was height control.

The unfortunate thing about your second paragraph is that they're planning to rework stabs again and make them less exploitable. It may be worth learning more versatile fighting styles for the long run. But whatever happens, it's a single player game, so as long as anyone's having fun, they're winning.

[Mtcheeeew]

I'd like to note that most veterans have a preferred play style and weapon choice and don't fall prey to meta because there actually isn't,instead those in the community who don't actually have real skill in the game build reliance on handicaps in the a.I. e.g. being too defensive, unable to block, use, or adequately defend crouch, thrust being overpowered because of a bug,etc.
I like how Dingdong aptly equated it to dirty fighting,and i think a style as such would be pretty interesting

[Solinarius☕]

Originally posted by Dingdong09:

I don't need to learn much about control, ive been playing before stabbing was even a thing, if they make stabbing slow then it will just stop being meta and ill stop using it as much. I don't care what people think is the honorable way to fight, I prefer to play games at a high level i.e. learn the meta. If the high level isn't how its intended to be played then the dev needs to change it, but they also risk making the game less fun in doing so. The truth is that the new AI makes swing fighting really annoying because it backpedals nonstop, stabbing is just an effective way to counter this annoying behavior.

I'm with afrovoodoo on this. The only thing a meta is going to do in this game is handicap players against others that are more adaptable and proficient. The combat is just too dynamic to cut it down to one right answer or even twenty. I do find it interesting that you think repeatedly stepping back and forth until you get your way with the AI and spamming thrust is "high level". For me, PVP is my end-goal with the combat in this game, and so I won't rely on cheap tricks because I know from experience that they won't work at a high level without sheer luck.

The AI backpedaling non-stop has been mythbusted on this very forum. NPCs don't just let you hit them anymore. This is a good thing despite all the people that complain about it. That said, I also want more aggressive opponents, but we'll have to wait for diverse behaviors to be implemented.

[Roryn]

Originally posted by Dingdong09:

Originally posted by Roryn:

The unfortunate thing about your second paragraph is that they're planning to rework stabs again and make them less exploitable. It may be worth learning more versatile fighting styles for the long run. But whatever happens, it's a single player game, so as long as anyone's having fun, they're winning.

I don't need to learn much about control, ive been playing before stabbing was even a thing, if they make stabbing slow then it will just stop being meta and ill stop using it as much. I don't care what people think is the honorable way to fight, I prefer to play games at a high level i.e. learn the meta. If the high level isn't how its intended to be played then the dev needs to change it, but they also risk making the game less fun in doing so. The truth is that the new AI makes swing fighting really annoying because it backpedals nonstop, stabbing is just an effective way to counter this annoying behavior.

Alright, this may start a fight, but I don't think that what you're describing sounds like high-level playing. Earlier you mentioned that it's not possible to aim swings, but many people are able to consistently hit opponents' heads in a RtL swing with almost no windup. I would recommend experimenting with angling BEFORE you initiate a swing -- at a 45 degree angle -- so that you have to press W and D at the same time to move to wards the opponent instead of just W. You will definitely find this style of fighting more efficent than stabbing.

[Roryn]

Originally posted by Dingdong09:

Originally posted by Roryn:

Alright, this may start a fight, but I don't think that what you're describing sounds like high-level playing. Earlier you mentioned that it's not possible to aim swings, but many people are able to consistently hit opponents' heads in a RtL swing with almost no windup. I would recommend experimenting with angling BEFORE you initiate a swing -- at a 45 degree angle -- so that you have to press W and D at the same time to move to wards the opponent instead of just W. You will definitely find this style of fighting more efficent than stabbing.

That's stupid. RtL headshots are totally random, stab headshots can be done every time. If your character is taller than the person you're fighting you can consistently whiff short RTL swings because your character took a vector that is too high, there is no control of the swing height, none. What do you not understand about this? Why do people keep claiming you can aim the height of your swings? You can't, at all. The only control you have is either crouching or only using the midpoint to aim, which is generally rarely done because that is easily blocked by the AI. In effect, you cannot headshot with any real consistency with any horizontal techniques, its not possible. You can headshot every time with stabs tho.

Yes you can hit your target with consistency from point blank consistently because from point blank swing height does not matter, its like saying you can control where all the pellets on a shotgun blast goes because its possible to make a singular hole if you shoot point blank. You're giving bad advice on this forum, anyone who says you can aim the height of your attacks besides stabs and overheads is lying. And there is no more efficient way to play than stabbing, if for no other reason than you can keep attacking nonstop, swings almost always give your opponent enough time to reciprocate.

READ THE ORIGINAL QUESTION!!! The OP wanted to know how to hit his opponent in the vulnerable head consistently, I gave him the best answer: stab him in the head. This is consistent and will always work as long as you don't miss, swings have NO guarantee of hitting the head, that's a fact regardless of if someone got lucky once and had all their swings originate high for a set amount of sample points.

I can guarantee you that there are ways to control the height of your swing. The developers themselves say so. In any case, please don't be so aggressive. We're all just trying to help people in here develop their abilities.

https://vimeo.com/296531679

Notice the high strike early on. It's impossible to get that sort of angle on a swing without manipulating the angle of your body. Obviously it was way too high, but it shows what i'm trying to demonstrate clearly. Also notice the consistency of higher strikes, especially close to the end. Look at the position of the cursor before I swing and then the motion of it afterwards. It's quite easy to replicate high swings if you're used to the motion. Experimentation with movement is very rewarding in this game.

[Mtcheeeew]

Dingdong would like to see some recordings of your fighting, can you record a practice arena run through, from start of novice?