"cheesing"?

[Monseigneur Oopsie lol]

A concept that I've seen buzzing around the forum is "cheesing".

Edit: I've decided to edit the OP as the thread has received valuable input and clever remarks but also some replies that seem to miss the point. As a kind of disclaimer I should've put that ofcourse, at the end of the day you decide how you play the game. This thread is meant as a civil discussion to discuss what tactics are seen as "cheesing" and where the limits lie of abusing the AI and environment of Exanima. I hope we can come to some kind of general conclusion* (*exceptions may apply) type of deal where the majority agrees what cheesing is and most of all, how it can hurt (or benefit) the play experience or even the community (bad advice as someone has mentioned). It can also be seen as a comparison between "ingame honour" compared to "real life honour" as some ingame cheesing might be considered as perfectly valid in real life scenario's. This thread is not meant as a circlejerk and people getting upsetti over each others opinions.

Edit2: Let's see how cheesing will apply in multiplayer and how it will compare to single player. What would you consider cheesing by a PvP opponent?

Edit3: As much as this is a complete rewrite of the OP, please know that every original reply is still very appreciated.

Edit4: This thread can also be seen as collecting cheeses that the devs can consider to reply to (either ingame by adjusting mechanics/AI or in this thread).

Edit5: Should there be a mechanic to alter difficulty or playstyle to respond to people their behaviour ingame? More ways to kill enemies with traps or environmental assets?

[White ⁧⁧Wolf]

"Cowards die many times before their deaths. The valiant never taste of death but once."

Personally, for example, I don't let Sir chase me into the pit of doom or anything like that. I prefer to fight with honour and bravery rather than exploit/cheat or anything of the sort. I'm sure there are others here who are the same.

[Lazarvs]

I think that is overthinking, if its your first run, you can face sir and lose your progres, and start again, with the knowledge you may have gained dying vs him, or you can use your surroundings as advantage, in a "real life" scenario, a real knight so to speak i'm sure would use his brain to strategically find the best solution, when i found Sir, i was going out of a bathroom, the simplest solution i saw at that moment (short time to react) going in again, cover myself in a corner, and thrust him with my sword . Whatever you do is your choice, with his consecuences, if you die because you face him in open space, you can still enjoy the process, and start a new game with a different vibe, more carefully, enjoying a (beautifull)game with such situations, if you kill him "face to face" on open field, good for you, for sure is a rewarding experience (i doubt any one did that in his first playtrough, if you have killed him 20 times, is so easy to talk about "face to face" to a monster you know very well) , I used strategy since "roleplaying" unless you are playing a tipical brainless knight (the kind that charges to everything, and are the first to die), a smart warrior would use whatever is in his disposal as advantage (in a realistic scenario, wich what matters is to survive), not talking about a duel between honorous knights, we are talking about figting vs a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ masive ifernal creature

[Monseigneur Oopsie lol]

I died around 5 times before I managed to kill Sir by ducking quite a lot and making use of corners and walls. President golumn however, i cheesed out of sheer luck and panic by immediately running away as soon as he activated and realizing his halbert was way too inconvenient for the small entrance to his hall.
I don't know if I am that embarrassed or have more thr feeling I should be embarrassed and therefore am.

Originally posted by Ⓣ☯Ⓜ:

"Cowards die many times before their deaths. The valiant never taste of death but once."

Personally, for example, I don't let Sir chase me into the pit of doom or anything like that. I prefer to fight with honour and bravery rather than exploit/cheat or anything of the sort. I'm sure there are others here who are the same.

But this took you a lot of tries right? I

[Sam_Destroyer]

I managed to kill Sir on first try in open space thanks to (spoiler) the gollem armour found in the fifth level. I did the fifth before the fourth because at that time I did not know that the two levels weren't seperated by a simple door at the end of the level and it just happend that I ran straight to the corridor joining the two before anything else. I had also killed many beasts in arena mode before and Sir is just an easier version of that because of his very low reach. I was easily hitting him with a long halberd found also in level 5.

The gollem armor so far is an absolute tank, I get thrown around a room by gollems and I don't take any red damage, only a bit of yellow damage. I can even run through the zombies not caring at all like in dead rising. Might need a nerf.

[angrytrex]

depends on the type of cheese and what you do with it. Not all cheese is equally as foul.

[CatEatingMushrooms]

There's nothing "cheesy" about getting past Sir by locking him in a room or making him fall in the pit of doom. The game is designed intentionally to allow that. The issue of "cheese" really comes into play when players beat Sir by heavy use of the crouch key or wedging themselves into corners where the monsters can't hit them. These tactics go completely against common sense, and only work due to the current technical limitations of the AI.

At the end of the day, however, it's a single player game, and nobody but you has to care about what happens in it. If those tactics are fair game in your opinion and you don't feel any less accomplished winning that way, then there is no harm in doing so.

[White ⁧⁧Wolf]

Originally posted by Grizzly:

But this took you a lot of tries right? I

Well yeah. We learn through failure. Trial & error. I mostly played story mode while I was still very new to the game, so I did die a few times.

[Manwith Noname]

Originally posted by angrytrex:

depends on the type of cheese and what you do with it. Not all cheese is equally as foul.

If it's got blue in it, I'm not interested.

[zaratan4o]

The "pit of doom" is only there for the purpose of suicide. It is not designed to have Sir run into it mindlessly as if it isn't there. ;d It will probably be removed eventually(might decide to keep it though who knows).

[alkoholisoitunut lisko]

Originally posted by zaratan4o:

The "pit of doom" is only there for the purpose of suicide. It is not designed to have Sir run into it mindlessly as if it isn't there. ;d It will probably be removed eventually(might decide to keep it though who knows).

why wud there be and suicude option? if the monster can kill you if you let it?

[Cake for Mumm-Ra]

Originally posted by zaratan4o:

The "pit of doom" is only there for the purpose of suicide. It is not designed to have Sir run into it mindlessly as if it isn't there. ;d It will probably be removed eventually(might decide to keep it though who knows).

I wouldn't assume that. BM may have put it there specifically for players who wanted to out-smart the beast as opposed to facing it in open combat. As plenty of others have mentioned, would you go toe to toe with Sir if you were lost in and underground dungeon armed with little more than a pointy piece of steel? Exanima is meant to be a challenge that encourages finding numerous solutions.

[Mtcheeeew]

Originally posted by Cake for Žižek:

Originally posted by zaratan4o:

The "pit of doom" is only there for the purpose of suicide. It is not designed to have Sir run into it mindlessly as if it isn't there. ;d It will probably be removed eventually(might decide to keep it though who knows).

I wouldn't assume that. BM may have put it there specifically for players who wanted to out-smart the beast as opposed to facing it in open combat. As plenty of others have mentioned, would you go toe to toe with Sir if you were lost in and underground dungeon armed with little more than a pointy piece of steel? Exanima is meant to be a challenge that encourages finding numerous solutions.

He isnt assuming anything.The pit of doom was added specifically for players that have completed all current content and and need a way to kill their character so they respawn at the portal and allows them to replay from when they first entered the portal. The dual function of the pit is just a side effect, expect sir to be aware of high drops as even dumb creatures know that to fall down a dark hole is a bad idea.

Exanima is a work in progress and it does try to encourage finding numerous solutions to challenges, but that does not mean cheesing, cheesing is defined by leading the a.i. in a way that it cannot properly retaliate or react to. e.g. you the player knows how to avoid the hole, sir should know but doesnt yet, so you use this knowledge to defeat him. You have defeated the adversary true but only because the a.i. is incomplete not because it is part of the gameplay.

A tip for new players, Exanima is nothing like most think it will be, there is much much more coming and the experience is going to change very much from the next update.

[CatEatingMushrooms]

Originally posted by Who Do Voodoo:

Originally posted by Cake for Žižek:

I wouldn't assume that. BM may have put it there specifically for players who wanted to out-smart the beast as opposed to facing it in open combat. As plenty of others have mentioned, would you go toe to toe with Sir if you were lost in and underground dungeon armed with little more than a pointy piece of steel? Exanima is meant to be a challenge that encourages finding numerous solutions.

He isnt assuming anything.The pit of doom was added specifically for players that have completed all current content and and need a way to kill their character so they respawn at the portal and allows them to replay from when they first entered the portal. The dual function of the pit is just a side effect, expect sir to be aware of high drops as even dumb creatures know that to fall down a dark hole is a bad idea.

Exanima is a work in progress and it does try to encourage finding numerous solutions to challenges, but that does not mean cheesing, cheesing is defined by leading the a.i. in a way that it cannot properly retaliate or react to. e.g. you the player knows how to avoid the hole, sir should know but doesnt yet, so you use this knowledge to defeat him. You have defeated the adversary true but only because the a.i. is incomplete not because it is part of the gameplay.

A tip for new players, Exanima is nothing like most think it will be, there is much much more coming and the experience is going to change very much from the next update.

False. The pit of doom was added so that, when people leave their game open around you, you can drop their torch in it while they aren't looking.

[Monseigneur Oopsie lol]

Originally posted by SqueezyTime:

...At the end of the day, however, it's a single player game, and nobody but you has to care about what happens in it. If those tactics are fair game in your opinion and you don't feel any less accomplished winning that way, then there is no harm in doing so.

True. I agree with you. I was just curious how people see the balance between being valiant and surviving whatever way they can.

Otherwise, I'm pretty sure the pit of doom is Sir's trash bin to keep clean ship. Don't want the flesh, blood and bones of the defeated messing up your halls.

On a more serious note, the intent and purpose of the pit of doom might be as dynamic as the devs see fit. The original intent might've been for players to commit suicide, but I wouldn't be surprised if using it as a trap for Sir is considered a legitimate use as well.

[J. Bruh]

As long as that hole is there for a logical reason, then it can stay in the final version. It has to make sense for it to be there, so maybe it's a garbage shoot or vent of some sort.

"Cheesing" is simply taking advantage of the AIs flaws, and as the game gets more and more complete, it will hopefully become less common/easy.