Remove Forfeit and do something for savescumming

[thommix777]

I would like to suggest that Bare Mettle removes the forfeit from arena and does something for manual savescumming, as i think they are eating away the core meaning and purpose of the game,which is to offer real danger of loss.

FORFEIT:

Forfeit in arena is just easy way out from death and mistakes, this should never been added at all. At least add some penalty to using it, like still taking damage, even with possibility to die, if its used just as a last resort. Or the hirelings that were in the forfeited match, have to sit out next 2.
Make people think before using the easy way to escape-button.

Really, why was this option ever put in? It fights against everything the game is designed for as it is. It needs to have a real cost.

Another good idea from Wrongworld:

Perhaps the Forfeit feature needs to change a bit, make it so its only available to use in the first 10seconds of the fight, after that its greyed out.
That way you can forfeit if u accidentally entered a fight you didn't want to or entered a fight w.o gear - it does happen ;x

SAVESCUMMING:

Another thing that people use to escape the permadeath and cheat through the game.
Could it be possible to flag the saves inside the game, so that the game does know and remember the character is already dead, even when old save is copied in. That would take that out and enhance the core of the game, permadeath and true danger. It wouldn't then allow easy way out undoing all mistakes.



ARENA:

Also make it so that you actually have to play your manager too in arena. That gives more longevity to the arena, as people will actually have to think carefully where to enter.

You could make it so that no hireling can go higher than the managers rank or that managers rank affects the rank of the matches you can choose.

All these should be changed,in the design idea of the permadeath.



Here's the LEAD DESIGNERS words about their vision and what i mean for the context of this thread,you can find this from the pinned FAQ:


"A game can't be hard if you can't lose. Every game that is considered challenging is so because of severe penalties for losing. The game needs to challenge you and inpsire you to do better next time. Without consequences for losing you can have linear storytelling and you can feed your greed and addictions, you can't have a challenge and tension, and in my opinion any actual fun. If everything is inconsequential then what is the point? If that's the kind of game you're looking for then you're in the wrong place.

We're sick to vomiting of games where nothing you do matters, where you can just undo all your mistakes, where there is no player freedom, no risk, no genuine incentive to perform well or even think about what you're doing. Nothing matters, it's all pointless and you can't win or even feel like you've accomplished something because you can't lose in the first place.

...

Our stance on this is never going to change."

With that said, there are optional early checkpoints which can be enabled in the game menu. Also note: if you lose all stamina but still have health remaining then you'll be knocked-out yet still alive; you'll wake up a short time later although there may be consequences for being knocked unconscious.

[boggington]

Why do you care?

[thommix777]

引用自 Jackrabbitofdoom：

Why do you care?

Simple, i like the game and want to suggest things that make it better during development, in the theme and spirit the developers themselves have stated the game to be when done, as is written in the OP of this thread. Isn't it obvious?

These suggestions are just way too scary for some people and they refuse to even read and think.

[boggington]

I don't see removing this stuff as better for the development. At least the forfeit for arena. Maybe I finally got a character up to adept, went into elimination, and was hit with waves of shield ♥♥♥♥♥ and didn't want to lose my character. Is that really so awful?

[thommix777]

引用自 Jackrabbitofdoom：

I don't see removing this stuff as better for the development. At least the forfeit for arena. Maybe I finally got a character up to adept, went into elimination, and was hit with waves of shield ♥♥♥♥♥ and didn't want to lose my character. Is that really so awful?

That is exactly what the Developers have stated they don't want their game to be. "oh no,i'm losing and dying, i just forfeit and run away without losing anything" Isn't what they are designing. It is currently as it is because it is still a work in progress. Hence i suggested some stuff in their OWN THEME and CONCEPT that fit the game.

Almost Everyone else here is missing that point entirely and completely. They just fear it gets too hard for them, but this game is designed to be hard and challenging. Those few things eat it away.

You just gave a model example of every other game out there, there's no danger of loss at all this way. That is not what BareMettle wants to do with theirs. Read their faqs if you don't believe me. They want your loss to be meaningfull and that you feel it. Running away doesn't do that.

If you read the OP again, there's actually another way to make forfeit cost something than just remove it... Please read before posting, thank you.

[boggington]

Even if they removed it or changed it, it would probably just get modded back into the game. Sorry, but I don't want to spend hours grinding up to this level just to die and have to grind back up again.

[thommix777]

引用自 Jackrabbitofdoom：

Even if they removed it or changed it, it would probably just get modded back into the game. Sorry, but I don't want to spend hours grinding up to this level just to die and have to grind back up again.

Then this game won't be for you once its done, because believe me, thats how its going to be. This won't be a cakewalk game holding your hand.

Well, its their own engine so i wouldn't be so sure about getting mods to it...Actually i think they said there wont be any,as it would compromise their vision of the game.

[boggington]

Alright well, my point is the grinding in this game sucks really bad and maybe some people don't have or want to spend hours getting back up to the higher ranks.

And as far as modding goes, that would be a shame if they didn't allow people to mod for this game, since there's a lot of possibility that's not just with the forfeit button. ;p

[thommix777]

引用自 Jackrabbitofdoom：

Alright well, my point is the grinding in this game sucks really bad and maybe some people don't have or want to spend hours getting back up to the higher ranks.

And as far as modding goes, that would be a shame if they didn't allow people to mod for this game, since there's a lot of possibility that's not just with the forfeit button. ;p

You do know that Arena isn't what this game is about,that's there just to pass time. Story-mode is the actual game and then there's Sui Generis coming with the complete world. Exanima is just a prequel.

How much people want to grind isn't a matter here either.
I can try to search for Madoc's answer to mods, think it was somewhere.
Found it from the Faq:

A: Modding has not been promised. Bare Mettle hopes to make it a reality, but resources are limited.

Games nevertheless aren't designed by thinking people will mod this or that out. They can when its possible, before that,we play what the devs intend.

[boggington]

I only play arena since I think the story mode is a giant ♥♥♥♥♥♥ rat maze, so grinding is actually a problem for me. Hope you can find what Madoc said about mods tho.

[thommix777]

引用自 Jackrabbitofdoom：

I only play arena since I think the story mode is a giant ♥♥♥♥♥♥ rat maze, so grinding is actually a problem for me. Hope you can find what Madoc said about mods tho.

Already did and wrote it above. :) Yeah i see your point, thats just the personal likes we each have. BareMettle is developing this game for their own likes, not ours :)

[boggington]

yup.

[CatEatingMushrooms]

I definitely agree that forfeiting a fight needs to come with much greater consequence than it currently does, but nothing can be done to completely prevent savescumming. That data needs to be saved somewhere; that data can always be manipulated.

Also, what you are suggesting with the "manager" role just makes no sense. If you want your main character to be a fighter, then do that; if you want them to be just a manager, who doesn't risk their life for money, then do that instead.

The core concept of the game is not "permadeath", and Bare Mettle never said that it was; that's something that you've just decided on your own.

[Thugnificent]

引用自 thommix777：

Already did and wrote it above. :) Yeah i see your point, thats just the personal likes we each have. BareMettle is developing this game for their own likes, not ours :)

Do you not see the hypocrisy here? you say that the devs are developing the game to their own likes and we should play like the devs intended and all that ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ but you're here insisting that the game should be and needs to be played a certain way.

The devs clearly intended for these features to be put in yet you're here complaining that the game should be how you envision it. Its a single player game let others play how they want and if you dont like the features in place then dont use them.

Lets face it you just like to boost your own ego with elitism and going "hurr durr this game is getting too easy for all these noobs we need to make it harder so people like me can feel good"

[thommix777]

引用自 SqueezyTime：

I definitely agree that forfeiting a fight needs to come with much greater consequence than it currently does, but nothing can be done to completely prevent savescumming. That data needs to be saved somewhere; that data can always be manipulated.

Also, what you are suggesting with the "manager" role just makes no sense. If you want your main character to be a fighter, then do that; if you want them to be just a manager, who doesn't risk their life for money, then do that instead.

The core concept of the game is not "permadeath", and Bare Mettle never said that it was; that's something that you've just decided on your own.

Core concept is to make you feel your mistakes, these don't do that. That's why there is permadeath. Please read the faqs, its not just my idea.

You are right in your options for manager, but the latter that doesn't risk their life, doesn't fit the theme of the game which is to make you feel your mistakes and punish for them. There needs to be something that puts them in danger, or at least something so its not just a guy sitting in corner. And they will change, you can be sure of that. Maybe not like i suggested, but they will change.

Yes,people will always find ways around stuff, still there's no reason to make it too easy. A simple flagging inside the game of the savefile ONCE the character dies,doesn't prevent other actions. Think it a bit more,thank you.

@thugnificent

I'm suggesting something to them that in my opinion eat away from their vision of the game,which is to make you feel your mistakes and punish for them. These take that away.

Read the faqs and maybe you understand what they are trying to do.These features are still a work in progress and will most surely change. Maybe not like i suggest, but they will change. You really think it will stay like this? Sorry, nope.

If you really have nothing constructive to add and you can't understand the concept of this thread, please don't post.

[Wrongworld]

引用自 thommix777：

If you really have nothing constructive to add and you can't understand the concept of this thread, please don't post.

You really should take your own advice, the only one making a fool of themselves here are you, but your immensely inflated ego prevents you from grasping anything anyone is saying, including yourself.

Cheating is never part of any devs vision of their game, it is something completely seperated from eachother, making your point meaningless.

Anyway, i havn't responded before now cause i tire of talking to your ego and i think perhaps its time someone locked this thread ;x
Afterall, manager and forfeit feature is the only thing there is to discuss, but hardly is/have been done.
and seeing as how the basis of those subjects are gonna change alot once co-op/multiplayer is added, maybe we should just leave it for then..