Do Collect-a-thons hold back 3d platformers?

[adzl33t]

So far the reviewers have been not as stellar as I expected, but then I remembered; I was not a big fan of Collect-a-thons, I was however a fan of 3d platforming

My favorite 3d platformer on N64 as a kid was not Banjo or Mario, but Rayman 2, a much more linear game with it's collecting aspect used mostly as an extra challenge but not the major focus of the game, instead that game was mostly a thrill ride to go from point A to point B

Mario 64's tech was limited so they can not do epic long obstacles courses like say Crash Bandicoot later on PS1, so instead most of the stages were designed as playgrounds which aged better (Rainbow Bridge did not as you have to do the same stuff over and over again)

That's the divide for Mario fans, straightforward obstacle courses or ooen playgrounds, though was collecting stuff ever that fun.

I mean sure OCDs playing hide and seek with shiny and chrome stuff might have fun for a while, but the joy of 3d platformer was not to collect stuff, but to jump around cool environments

3d platforming to me can just be used a basic control scheme can be supplemented with other mechanics, the Collect-a-thons may died with the N64 but the 3d platformer evolve on the PS2 with Ratchet & Clank, Sly, and Jak using other styles of plays such as open world, action, and stealth

To say Yooka Laylee as the epic return of 3d platforming would be like to say a walking simulator a return to FPS for me, the mechanics of 3d platforming may become less popular compare to PoV or abstract 2d perspectives are on games, but I think we can do more than doing chores sweeping tokens

Like Donkey Kong 64 would be more fun if I didn't have to do that stuff , which just a cheap way to extend gameplay

Yooka Laylee restricted itself with it's Collect-a-thons mechanics, 2d platforming has been updated with Shovel Knights checkpoint system or Freedom Planet more lenient hit box, surpassing older games

I think we can do better people

[adzl33t]

Captain Buzzkill lPaladinl の投稿を引用：

I like a mix of both, but making collecting the primary goal of the game is not usually the best idea in my opinion. That said I enjoyed Banjo and Kazooie quite a lot on N64, as well as Mario and Rayman, and Sonic, on their respective platforms.

Your argument is quite silly to me though, because you state that your opinion of a good platformer is to focus on jumping around cool environments with challenging platforming, and not collecting items.

It's like you're insinuating that when you have collectables, that you suddenly can't have a Mario-like game world design.

Collectathons are usually to encourage you to explore the levels and do exactly what you said you liked in other games, to be a thrill ride from point A to B, while you pick up items along the way. You also brought up Jak and Daxter, which, sorry to say, was a Collectathon. Remember how many damn orbs you needed to pick up in every level, and having entire segments dedicated to grabbing more of them, so that you could get off a speed bike to go run around and get even MORE of them?

Anyways, based on what you've said, if you haven't, I would strongly recommend trying some of the newer Mario games, like Super Mario 3D Land. Mario has moved away from the coin collecting of the older days (Unless you play New Super Mario Bros., that series has it intact), and instead focusing on the platforming, with a smaller number of collectables in each stage behind challenges (Usually 3-5 giant coins that are hidden or otherwise tricky to get)

I didn't own Jak 1 until much later, I barely played it

2d mario games have collectibles to be like extra challenges that are easy to spot, except maybe Super Mario World 2, also I don't mind Mario 64 esque playgrounds, just have different goals than just collecting

Also the last major 3d platformer Mario, is perhaps kinda bland with it's sterile flat blocky design, the PS2 games I mentioned had more personality

[adzl33t]

Ryunaker の投稿を引用：

I dunno how many people would agree with me, but I actually like the collectathon side of things. Yes, it extends the gameplay, but to me, it also adds a sense of purpose and progression. It's not "I'm just running through this place to get to that place." Instead, it's "I need to explore, and find as much as I can." Of course, exploration has always been a big thing for me.

You can have that by simplify the collecting aspect, Mario 64 had more specific objectives than just collecting

[adzl33t]

Rokio の投稿を引用：

Rayman 2 is one of the greatest platforming titles of all time.

I enjoy both types of platformers, myself. The Rayman type, and the Banjo Kazooie and Spyro collect-a-thon type.

The main reason I enjoy collect-a-thons is because they give you a solid goal to work towards. It's all about exploring and finding all the little hidden areas and secrets, and when you completely clear out a world, pop open the menu and see all those 10/10s, 5/5s, 100/100s, telling you that you've found everything and cleared out every nook and cranny in the place, it brings a certain level of satisfaction. I'm a completionist and am kinda OCD about grabbing everything I can in games, so these types of titles greatly appeal to me. Love seeing those completion totals!

I guess I can understand that, though personally I perfer end stage ranking scores for my sense of accomplish, which requires more skill than say if I'm desperate enough, I just look up a playthrough of a game

[lPaladinl]

adzl33t の投稿を引用：

I didn't own Jak 1 until much later, I barely played it

2d mario games have collectibles to be like extra challenges that are easy to spot, except maybe Super Mario World 2, also I don't mind Mario 64 esque playgrounds, just have different goals than just collecting

Also the last major 3d platformer Mario, is perhaps kinda bland with it's sterile flat blocky design, the PS2 games I mentioned had more personality

Maybe if you looked at only one level and formed your opinion on just that one level?

There's a lot of variety in the recent mario games, and plenty of organic textures and designs in their own levels or even matched up with inorganic bits. I'd have to argue that Mario doesn't have any less personality these days, it's just a different personality.

[adzl33t]

Captain Buzzkill lPaladinl の投稿を引用：

adzl33t の投稿を引用：

I didn't own Jak 1 until much later, I barely played it

2d mario games have collectibles to be like extra challenges that are easy to spot, except maybe Super Mario World 2, also I don't mind Mario 64 esque playgrounds, just have different goals than just collecting

Also the last major 3d platformer Mario, is perhaps kinda bland with it's sterile flat blocky design, the PS2 games I mentioned had more personality

Maybe if you looked at only one level and formed your opinion on just that one level?

There's a lot of variety in the recent mario games, and plenty of organic textures and designs in their own levels or even matched up with inorganic bits. I'd have to argue that Mario doesn't have any less personality these days, it's just a different personality.

Also I don't own consoles for like a decade, so I have explain why I wouldn't like it :p

But seriously some designs look neat, but I like narrative with my games, Nintendo very much gameplay first, as seen with the new Zelda game, with bland mute guy fights bland bad guy with a lack of cutscenes wandering empty space, Egoraptor approve

When I play games I don't just want mechanics, I like narrative, personality, and characters

That's why I like Rayman 2 dark moody atmosphere than clean sterile Mario 64, though Rare goofy sense of humor helped their games

Like what's the point of Mario, let's just play customizable Miibos, Mario might as well be an unsalted cracker
https://youtu.be/PInhHdoU6y8

[lPaladinl]

adzl33t の投稿を引用：

Captain Buzzkill lPaladinl の投稿を引用：

Maybe if you looked at only one level and formed your opinion on just that one level?

There's a lot of variety in the recent mario games, and plenty of organic textures and designs in their own levels or even matched up with inorganic bits. I'd have to argue that Mario doesn't have any less personality these days, it's just a different personality.

Also I don't own consoles for like a decade, so I have explain why I wouldn't like it :p

But seriously some designs look neat, but I like narrative with my games, Nintendo very much gameplay first, as seen with the new Zelda game, with bland mute guy fights bland bad guy with a lack of cutscenes wandering empty space, Egoraptor approve

When I play games I don't just want mechanics, I like narrative, personality, and characters

That's why I like Rayman 2 dark moody atmosphere than clean sterile Mario 64, though Rare goofy sense of humor helped their games

Like what's the point of Mario, let's just play customizable Miibos, Mario might as well be an unsalted cracker
https://youtu.be/PInhHdoU6y8

Now you're a lot clearer about what you're liking in games and disliking in Mario.

And you're right, Mario as a concept is not about a complex narrative. Mario at it's core is about being simple fun. Which is what I appreciate about the series, especially recently, because sometimes a more simple game that is purely focused on fun factor, can be a good thing and a fresh break from all of the overly complicated and complex ideas of other games. Nintendo knows how to make a good game without using a story as a crutch.

And that is exactly what makes Jak and Daxter or Rachet and Clank stand out from Mario, Mario is not story driven beyond "Here's the thing/person you lost, go get it/them back", like Yooka-Laylee here. Those other games were much more story driven.

I don't see why you think Mario is sterile though. I still argue that Mario is just of a different personality and theme (light-hearted fun) instead of less personality. I like my dark and moody games and movies as well, but it doesn't mean that I hate alternatives.

[adzl33t]

Captain Buzzkill lPaladinl の投稿を引用：

adzl33t の投稿を引用：

Also I don't own consoles for like a decade, so I have explain why I wouldn't like it :p

But seriously some designs look neat, but I like narrative with my games, Nintendo very much gameplay first, as seen with the new Zelda game, with bland mute guy fights bland bad guy with a lack of cutscenes wandering empty space, Egoraptor approve

When I play games I don't just want mechanics, I like narrative, personality, and characters

That's why I like Rayman 2 dark moody atmosphere than clean sterile Mario 64, though Rare goofy sense of humor helped their games

Like what's the point of Mario, let's just play customizable Miibos, Mario might as well be an unsalted cracker
https://youtu.be/PInhHdoU6y8

Now you're a lot clearer about what you're liking in games and disliking in Mario.

And you're right, Mario as a concept is not about a complex narrative. Mario at it's core is about being simple fun. Which is what I appreciate about the series, especially recently, because sometimes a more simple game that is purely focused on fun factor, can be a good thing and a fresh break from all of the overly complicated and complex ideas of other games. Nintendo knows how to make a good game without using a story as a crutch.

And that is exactly what makes Jak and Daxter or Rachet and Clank stand out from Mario, Mario is not story driven beyond "Here's the thing/person you lost, go get it/them back", like Yooka-Laylee here. Those other games were much more story driven.

I don't see why you think Mario is sterile though. I still argue that Mario is just of a different personality and theme (light-hearted fun) instead of less personality. I like my dark and moody games and movies as well, but it doesn't mean that I hate alternatives.

Lego games have more personality (movie properties do help) with it's humor, also Call of Duty are quite boring and bland despite being darker

But still I ask, why do Nintendo need Mario? Just make customizable 3d platformers, Mario Maker was a success, and I don't need Metal Gear length cutscenes just emotional context deeper than get a thing (I'm referring Princess Peach as a thing)

Though I read Mario RPGs are a little better, and I quite like Luigi's Mansion with it's more vulnerable protagonist

[lPaladinl]

Yeah Mario and Luigi is a great RPG series, more simplified on the RPG mechanics but they have fun gameplay with timed mechanics and some mario-esque elements. Same with Paper Mario games as well. They have much more narrative to them. The humor in Mario and Luigi is not always my speed though, but that's mostly a taste thing. (Speaking namely to Dream Team here, a lot of the humor feels really forced to me)

Luigi's Mansion is also a great series with some more narrative to it (not much more, but it's more than Mario running after Peach). I really like the atmosphere of those games with the 'spooky' mansions. The latest main Mario games still have ghost houses, but they lack the narrative and atmosphere that makes it more appealing in Luigi's Mansion. Though they often are still my favorite levels.

Does Nintendo need Mario? Of course not, that's why they have Zelda with Link and Yoshi and Fire Emblem and Animal Crossing and Toad and Starfox... and Samu- wait they kinda ruined her... or uh... F-Zer-rrrrr wait...

But on a serious note, I guess they wouldn't need Mario to make a 'Mario' Platformer, but I'm not too on board with a Mii-game either. Mostly because I find the Mii's to be too simple and dull for me personally, even if you can make some silly facts. You wanna talk about homogenized characters that look like The Game of Life boardgame pieces... well...

Wouldn't be a bad idea to include them in as an additional character choice though, and work from there. Mario may not have the most depth as a personality, but he does have *some* personality and is iconic regardless.

And Mario Maker was a success, the 3DS version *kind of* sucks (for lack of online support mostly, that was probably one of the biggest draws to it), and the Switch is getting a port of it that I am excited for. But Mario Maker also only caters to one part of the franchise, 2d platforming marios, and even with that there's actually some content missing still. 3d Mario games still offer different gameplay mechanics and tend to push the envelope more than what the 2d games have done.

[adzl33t]

Captain Buzzkill lPaladinl の投稿を引用：

Yeah Mario and Luigi is a great RPG series, more simplified on the RPG mechanics but they have fun gameplay with timed mechanics and some mario-esque elements. Same with Paper Mario games as well. They have much more narrative to them. The humor in Mario and Luigi is not always my speed though, but that's mostly a taste thing. (Speaking namely to Dream Team here, a lot of the humor feels really forced to me)

Luigi's Mansion is also a great series with some more narrative to it (not much more, but it's more than Mario running after Peach). I really like the atmosphere of those games with the 'spooky' mansions. The latest main Mario games still have ghost houses, but they lack the narrative and atmosphere that makes it more appealing in Luigi's Mansion. Though they often are still my favorite levels.

Does Nintendo need Mario? Of course not, that's why they have Zelda with Link and Yoshi and Fire Emblem and Animal Crossing and Toad and Starfox... and Samu- wait they kinda ruined her... or uh... F-Zer-rrrrr wait...

But on a serious note, I guess they wouldn't need Mario to make a 'Mario' Platformer, but I'm not too on board with a Mii-game either. Mostly because I find the Mii's to be too simple and dull for me personally, even if you can make some silly facts. You wanna talk about homogenized characters that look like The Game of Life boardgame pieces... well...

Wouldn't be a bad idea to include them in as an additional character choice though, and work from there. Mario may not have the most depth as a personality, but he does have *some* personality and is iconic regardless.

And Mario Maker was a success, the 3DS version *kind of* sucks (for lack of online support mostly, that was probably one of the biggest draws to it), and the Switch is getting a port of it that I am excited for. But Mario Maker also only caters to one part of the franchise, 2d platforming marios, and even with that there's actually some content missing still. 3d Mario games still offer different gameplay mechanics and tend to push the envelope more than what the 2d games have done.

I think a 3d Mario Maker would be a cool sequel, or if some other company make a more customizable user friendly 3d platformer designer, that an a more customizable 2d platformer creator may make Mario obsolete if I can hyperbollicaly wistful

Now to steer this back to Yooka Laylee, I watched Zero Punctuation's Yahtzee review and perhaps the game relies to much of fourth wall humor, which cheapens the game narrative

Here's an overly complicated discussion on fourth wall humor
https://youtu.be/ZLsSBA9Bxik

[lPaladinl]

I haven't played much of Yooka-Laylee myself yet (only 20 minutes of testing before I prepare to stream it some other time), but from what I've seen there is definitely quite a bit of 4th wall breaking.

I think it comes more down to personal tastes, I don't like 4th wall breaking humor much myself, but there are games that are praised highly for it. For instance, I recently picked up Neptunia games last year (comparatively speaking) and played some of them for a bit for the first time. They're usually heralded as having great story and humor, which is based almost entirely about 4th wall breaking narrative and poking fun at the gaming industry. Some people like that a lot I guess, but I find it incredibly hit or miss.

Again I can't speak for Yooka-Laylee yet though. From what I've seen nothing has really missed the mark too badly for me personally.

As for a 3D Mario Maker... Hell yeah I'd love one, but it'd probably be a lot more complicated. Mario Maker as it is is quite complex with what you can do. I'm trying to think of anything similar to a 3D Platformer maker but it escapes me. Most Sandbox games could technically be considered as partially that, but many of those games lack solid platforming mechanics and are usually quite boring if you tried to make a platformer.

On a side note, where's my Sackboy 3d World? Even though I am not inclined to buy a Playstation anytime soon.

[Dorin]

I personally love having tons of hidden stuff to collect, and preferably I like these collactables to unlock other things as well. Games like banjo&kazooie, DK64 and Conker's bad fur day were the golden era of platformers for me.

The hidden collectables need to be reasonably placed though, I don't like it when games hide stuff in a way that is too over the top, for this reason I didn't enjoy Super Mario Sunshine's blue coins, they were extremely annoying to get through.