Religions/philosophies need a greater role

[NoNameSteak]

So I'm a history teacher and an MA in China Studies. I don't claim to be a total professional, but I do feel like Taoism, Legalism, Mohism, and Confucianism are too much an afterthought in this game. I'd like to see religions/philosophies expanded more, adding the option to (for example) adopt a specific religion for certain bonuses, or find some other meaningful way to incorporate it.

[Aries]

What grade u teach and what history?

[lemurs2]

well, those are not religions. At the start point it would largely be Di in Zhongguo and various shamanic pantheons elsewhere.

[Neutron]

Not so much an afterthought, as something that's difficult to incorporate. There were no Confucian crusades, or Daoist Jihads, and no Buddhist Pope to excommunicate you, so religion had a much less pronounced effect on the political situation than in the west. And they all existed alongside each other, making it even harder to pick out the effects.

I've mainly tried to characterize religion and philosophy in the game by the effects given by the different schools.

Confucianism is the conservative philosophy for a large empire. It gives good bonuses to stability, at the cost of slower advancement.

Legalism is for those wanting to make a dash for victory. It boosts your economy, but provides less stability, allowing the possibility for a large empire to implode.

Mohism is for an embattled small state, where the citizens all have to band together to survive.

Daoism is the low key religion. It doesn't add much to stability, but the buildings are cheap, and boost development rate.

Buddhism is similar to Confucianism, but with less development downside. The price, being the higher cost of maintaining its temples.

One thing that would be easy to add is an edict giving state sponsorship to one philosophy or religion. The question is how to make it useful and interesting, without being OP, and still allowing the historical mixed development.

[NoNameSteak]

Originally posted by Neutron:

One thing that would be easy to add is an edict giving state sponsorship to one philosophy or religion. The question is how to make it useful and interesting, without being OP, and still allowing the historical mixed development.

I think this is the right idea, at least in the short term! It would help out a lot for me, personally, and offer new ways to use philosophies/religions strategically, with each conferring benefits to different playstyles and goals.

Originally posted by Aries:

What grade u teach and what history?

Grade 7, Ancient History until the Fall of Rome.

Originally posted by lemurs2:

well, those are not religions.

Incorrect. At the time and still today they were very much considered religions, especially Confucianism, Taoism, and Mohism, though the line between religion and philosophy was not as defined as it is in the West. Taoism is very, VERY much a religion still today, as is Confucianism. I literally live in Taiwan and teach Chinese history to Han Chinese teens at an International School, so this I am sure of. Legalism is not so much a religion, though, and never really was. The School of Names, which grew out of Mohism, is also not necessarily religious in nature, either.

It is a somewhat ethnocentric judgement of Western people to not categorize Taoism, Confucianism, and Mohism as religions, and it is a very popular misconception indeed, but it just isn't true.

Here is a Taoist Temple very close to my home: http://c8.alamy.com/comp/EFP7AH/taoyuan-dong-taoist-temple-wuyi-mountains-EFP7AH.jpg
Here is a Confucian Temple also just a few minutes away from me: http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/1811663/267627608/stock-photo-confucius-temple-in-taoyuan-taiwan-267627608.jpg
I assure you the people there would be quite shocked to hear from you that their religion is not a religion. :)

[Pintor Austríaco]

Originally posted by dash.galaxy:

Originally posted by Neutron:

One thing that would be easy to add is an edict giving state sponsorship to one philosophy or religion. The question is how to make it useful and interesting, without being OP, and still allowing the historical mixed development.

I think this is the right idea, at least in the short term! It would help out a lot for me, personally, and offer new ways to use philosophies/religions strategically, with each conferring benefits to different playstyles and goals.

Originally posted by Aries:

What grade u teach and what history?

Grade 7, Ancient History until the Fall of Rome.

Originally posted by lemurs2:

well, those are not religions.

Incorrect. At the time and still today they were very much considered religions, especially Confucianism, Taoism, and Mohism, though the line between religion and philosophy was not as defined as it is in the West. Taoism is very, VERY much a religion still today, as is Confucianism. I literally live in Taiwan and teach Chinese history to Han Chinese teens at an International School, so this I am sure of. Legalism is not so much a religion, though, and never really was. The School of Names, which grew out of Mohism, is also not necessarily religious in nature, either.

It is a somewhat ethnocentric judgement of Western people to not categorize Taoism, Confucianism, and Mohism as religions, and it is a very popular misconception indeed, but it just isn't true.

Here is a Taoist Temple very close to my home: http://c8.alamy.com/comp/EFP7AH/taoyuan-dong-taoist-temple-wuyi-mountains-EFP7AH.jpg
Here is a Confucian Temple also just a few minutes away from me: http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/1811663/267627608/stock-photo-confucius-temple-in-taoyuan-taiwan-267627608.jpg
I assure you the people there would be quite shocked to hear from you that their religion is not a religion. :)

There is a Communist Lenin's temple in the center of Moscow. https://www.google.ru/search?q=mausoleum+lenin&newwindow=1&biw=1920&bih=984&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiQs9aL34DQAhVLEiwKHWtLAXYQ_AUIBigB#imgrc=H9gOftJSw80BOM%3A
https://www.google.ru/search?q=mausoleum+lenin&newwindow=1&biw=1920&bih=984&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiQs9aL34DQAhVLEiwKHWtLAXYQ_AUIBigB#imgrc=xUEv0UIV0St4rM%3A
Do we need to call that "red religion" or "political philosophy and some secular rites"?

[NoNameSteak]

Taiwan is not communist, it's Asia's purest democracy, so there are no "red religions" here. Also, that is a palatial mausoleum that you linked to, not a temple. Go to Wikipedia. Read a book. I promise you they are religions with prayers, monks, priests, superstitions, etc. Your ignorance is showing on this issue. There are thousands of temples like the ones I posted all over the country, not just one glorified tomb as in the case of the Lenin Mausoleum, which, again, a mausoleum is not a temple. I actually know Taoist priests and have been to a Taoist funeral.

[Pintor Austríaco]

"There are thousands of temples like the ones I posted.." - "..which, again, is not a temple.."

[NoNameSteak]

Originally posted by deoved:

"There are thousands of temples like the ones I posted.." - "..which, again, is not a temple.."

I was referring to what you posted. A mausoleum is not a temple. It's a tomb.
I guess at this point I'm genuinely curious why you're fighting an obvious truth.

[Pintor Austríaco]

Originally posted by dash.galaxy:

Originally posted by deoved:

"There are thousands of temples like the ones I posted.." - "..which, again, is not a temple.."

I was referring to what you posted. A mausoleum is not a temple. It's a tomb.
I guess at this point I'm genuinely curious why you're fighting an obvious truth.

And if a tomb is not a religious building, what it is?

[NoNameSteak]

"A tomb (from Greek: τύμβος tumbos) is a repository for the remains of the dead. It is generally any structurally enclosed interment space or burial chamber, of varying sizes." -Wikipedia
"a house, chamber, or vault for the dead" - Merriam Webster
"a monument to the memory of a dead person, erected over their burial place." -Dictionary.com

Now, I looked at dozens of definitions and couldn't find one that suggested it was a temple, much less inherently religious. Honestly I am completely dumbfounded by this incredibly bizarre assertion that a tomb is somehow by definition a temple.

[Pintor Austríaco]

Forget. I better start living in a "..Asia's purest democracy..", than discuss anything with pedagogue. No offence)

[NoNameSteak]

Forgive me for my zeal in my replies. I also didn't wish to offend. I actually do live in Taiwan, and I have for 8 years now. I've also lived (for much shorter periods of time) in Hong Kong and Japan. My MA, as mentioned here and elsewhere, is in China Studies, and my father is a theologian (Catholic). I felt uniquely qualified to clear the air on a very pervasive ethnocentric misconception I've encountered many times in uninformed, non-academic communities. That is all. I'm not pedantic or a pedagogue. My classes are very liberal, high-tech, and exploratory. I'm only 30 years old myself. The pedagogue is any old-fashioned curmudgeon that refuses to accept Taoism and Confucianism as well as Chinese Folk Religions as actual religions.

Thank you for the opportunity to teach you! It's what I love to do. Peace.

[TCT]

……Although I am not a history experts，as far as I know，at that time, both Taoism and Confucianism are not religious. It is more suitable if you see them as some different philosophy faction. In fact, Confucianism has always been more like a philosophy of life and society. Taoism developed into a kind of religion is in the history after that time. In Chinese, we use different words to name them(look like the Taoist philosophy and the Taoist religion). Imagine the period of the Greek philosophy faction could make it much easier to understand.
At the same time, I don't think put the Buddhism and other factions together is appropriate. In this period, Buddhism is not be spread to China yet, at least not one of the mainstreams.

[bba525]

At what point does philosophy become religion?

[TCT]

Originally posted by bba525:

At what point does philosophy become religion?

I'm not sure about it, but according to the Chinese wikipedia, in the late Han dynasty, began to appear organized religion of Taoism, and in the northern and southern dynasties mature basically.