Philosophies

[ashunsley]

I really like how different philosophies (Taoism, Legalism, etc) are implemented in the game. It's one of the reasons I'm a little baffled by the accusations that the game doesn't feel "Chinese" enough.

So I've given a little thought to how state-sponsored philosophies and religions work IRL. Bascally, every state wants its citizens to do three things:

1) Behave. (In other words, don't be a criminal or a rebel).
2) Pay taxes.
3) Participate in the defense of the state against other states (if asked). (In other words, be a soldier if you're a young male, and make more soldiers if you're a young woman).

IMHO this is why you see so much similarity in the moral codes of all the major religions- at one time each of them was adopted by some great state and all great states have the same basic interests. (Love your neighbor, Render unto Caesar, Be Fruitful and Multiply/Gott Mit Uns).

So how do the big five (Taoism, Confucianism, Legalism, Buddhism and Mohism) stack up?

First off, a disclaimer: I am not a follower of any of these systems, nor am I a scholar of Chinese philosophies. But from what little I've read I've come to the following (possibly ridiculous) conclusions:

Taoism: "Governing a great state is like cooking a small fish" -Lao Zi.
What Lao Zi meant by this is that in -whatever- you do, the most important thing to know is when to sit back, be patient, and refrain from fussing over the work.
The Taoist political philosophy was essentially libertarian, advising low taxation and light punishments.
The Taoists themselves were patrons of early science- especially alchemy. So the bonus to knowledge they get in the game is appropriate.
Under the direction of Taoist sages, the ruler is making wise judgments, so the peasants are happy. But the nobles mistake compassion for weakness, and so are eager to test the ruler's will. I guess. (Increased chance of noble revolt/civil war).

Confucianism:
The Confucian political philosophy can be summed up thus: Revere your ancestors. Obey and respect your father. Observe traditional rituals. Submit to your feudal overlord (or king).
At the risk of oversimplification: the past is better than the future, agricultural production is better than trade, gradual and peaceful economic development is better than rapid expansion and aggressive war, peasants are better than merchants, and above all, tradition is better than innovation.
Confucian schools increase peasant and noble happiness (obedience) at the cost of scientific/cultural progress. All quite appropriate.

Legalism:
IIRC, Legalism and Confucianism were explicit rivals during and just after the warring states period. Legalism shared Confucianism's respect for authority and distrust of innovation. The two things that distinguished Legalism were:
Strict enforcement of harsh laws, and severe punishments.
And
Absolute hostility to the feudal system of government.
One thing that's missing in Oriental Empires is that Legalism (when adopted by the Qin) totally abolished the traditional feudal system of government.
This could be modeled a couple of ways. Maybe a Legalist school could increase noble unrest (the nobles fight back) or reduce it (the nobles are stripped of power and helpless to revolt).
Legalist schools increase tax revenue, which is absolutely accurate. The reduction of peasant unrest makes sense too (everyone is too terrified to rebel).
The abolishing feudalism thing could be an edict, unlocked by the same technology that allows legalist schools. It would temporarily increase noble unrest and increase authority (like the book burning edict), but instead of reducing culture reduces (or even eliminates) noble troop manpower.

Mohism:
This is a tricky one, because (so far as I know) Mohism was never adopted by any particular state, although it was more encouraged in the smaller states because the Mohists advocated protection of small states from the aggression of stronger ones.
Mohist mathematicians offered their services to the smaller states, serving as siege engineers, in both taking cities and defending them.
In the game Mohist schools reduce power advancement rate but increase craft and peasant happiness.
Some Mohist ideas were adopted by the rival schools, especially Confucianism and Legalism.

Buddhism:
Buddhism is also pretty tricky, because Buddhism was an essentially foreign doctrine, Local governments were often at odds with the Buddhists. There were suppression campaigns and Buddhist rebellions.
I'd almost suggest removing the maintenance cost of Buddhist temples completely (they are supported by alms, investments and donations rather than state taxes). Keep the bonus to thought progress, add pilgrims (as with shrines) but replace the happiness bonuses with peasant unrest.

[Neutron]

Pretty good summary of how I tried to incorporate philosophy into the game. As well as reflecting basic ideas, I tried to make the different schools appropriate for different sorts of empires. So Confucianism for stability in large empires, Legalism for rapid growth and conquest, Taoism for small states, Mohism for states under outside threat, and Buddhism as a sort of late game improvement on Confucianism.

I made the upkeep for Buddhist temples high, because they often became very rich and absorbed a lot of economic resources. Even to the extent of pretty much strangling the state in some surrounding nations. Tibet or later Mongolia for example.

The idea for a legalist edict to reduce noble manpower in return for lower noble unrest is a good one.

I'd be interested to know which schools of thought players like to use in game, and why.

[ashunsley]

I have used all of them. As you said, situation dependent. Mostly I use them to balance my tech advances. Sometimes I end up with ridiculously high power advance (especially if playing the Qin). So, Ironically, my Qin end up Mohist!
Often my temples/schools are tailored to the needs of individual cities. Cities that are near mountains will end up going Taoist (how appropriate!) because pavillions and summer palaces compensate for the noble unrest. Huge agricultural cities are legalist for the tax revenue and peasant control. New late game cities go buddhist or confucian because at that point all I care about is the unrest modifiers.
That having been said, I rarely find much use for buddhist temples (the thought bonus comes too late to be useful) and I almost >never> build confucian schools.

At least 80% of the time I go Legalist for the following reasons:
1) You need the legalist tech anyway.
2) There are a lot of power techs in the mid-late game.
3) The extra tax revenue is icing on the cake, and remains useful even after most or all of the techs are researched.
4) By the time you can build temples, noble unrest is usually already under control.
5) It's relativly easy to research all the knowledge techs you want, so there's not much reason to go Taoist.

[Sanvone]

I go Taoist if I'm interested in rushing Cavalry or I have penalty to Knowledge.

Legalist is pretty much the go-to-temple of OE because at some point the schools are paying for themselves so all other things are icing on the cake. And at point when you can have them - there isn't as many important things in Thought and Knowledge to research on. And I find myself liking to stack Power Research rate early in Imperial Era for gunpowder.

Confucianism - many players dislike it but as I tent to boom in mid game I kinda apprecieate those bonuses. Still I would like for some bonus (for example if you have temples build in every settlement you get +1 to Virtue on all new characters).

Mohism - even though craft reserach rate is nice I don't want it at the expense of power research rate. I tried to make it work for herders but it doesn't mesh nicely as they already have most often than not high craft research rate (meaning you research everything per era) and low power research rate (meaning you are getting even less).

Buddhism comes too late in the game for me to bother as well as - Thought research rate in Imperial Era is only useful if player has some serious deficiencies in this area, And even then you can just pick up various technologies that improve it.

So for me:
Tier 1: Legalism
Tier 2: Confucianism, Taoism,
Tier 3: Buddhism, Mohism,

[ashunsley]

My current game all my cities are Mohist. I play the custom game on a big, underpopulated map with the progress rate turned to 50% or less. One of the unintended consequences of this is that by the mid game money is really not a limiting factor. I'm also continuing to get boosts from encounters deep into the game.

So this game my Power advance rate was around 70% but my craft was still 0%. Mohism was the first doctrine I researched. Now the balance is closer to 50%/30%.