Trade network optimization?

[Zak]

Lets say I have 5 cities all connected by river trade. Is it better to have them all trade cities or only one? So a trade city has a market, caravan, and a high level port. Just the basic has a port only.

Really how does trade between multiple caravan cities work? Do they split or is it more valuable?

[Zak]

From what I read it will be better to have less trade cities. As their is only do much demand. So having every city trading would just split it among themself.

But this raises the local specilists question. Is their a fixed demand for it? Will everyone trading local specilists be better?

[Sanvone]

Generally yes it would benefit you to use those +trade value resources. But if you don't have them then just use 1 city who can have the most trade goods to avoid paying several bazaars/markets upkeeps.

If you have more than 1 source of certain trade good exported to designated city it will be around 33% less lucrative overall. +/-

[TheGrouch]

Each extra source of a certain trade good will only be half as effective and in turn also half the already existing trade route. Say you export copper to a city for 100 gold. If you add another trade route with the same amount of modifiers exporting copper both trade routes will earn 50 gold. So having one massive production center that reaches most cities is the way to go.

The same goes for local goods btw. There is no actual "demand" per se. Each good has a base value which is then multiplied by the size of the citiy you're exporting to and various other modifiers you may have.

[cadfan17]

Can you clarify on local goods? If I have only two cities, and I put a bazaar in one, will putting a bazaar in the other have any effect?

I've been assuming that it would, but that building a silk plantation in both is redundant. In other words I have been treating local goods differently from named goods. Am I incorrect?

If so I've been very inefficient. If local goods are the same then I should focus on having one or two massive trade hubs, with caravans to ensure all goods get everywhere.

But if so this also makes docks pretty lame, I think, since you need multiples for them to work and they cost upkeep.

[TheGrouch]

If you have only 2 cities then building bazaars wont be worth much anyway (unless they're massive). I am not a 100% certain if building a 2nd bazaar would give the full external trade for both or if the value of both will be halved because techincally they already have local specialites. I never build bazaars with just 2 cities. And once you have 3 cities you will definetely see diminishing returns. What you definitely get is the internal trade though.

And yes having 1 massive trade hub that exports to everywhere is the most efficient. As soon as you have overlapping exported goods you see efficiency loss as the trade will be split evenly.

Docks are actually the most effective way of trading if you can manage to get all your cities around a big river system or the coast. They get a 500% multiplier with the last upgrade and you can upgrade them without any tech requirement. Also they have a massive 50 tile range. The downside is the deep upfront cost but they have the largest potential.

Game where I tested trade. Yuyang being my main trade hub. Got lucky with both Jade and Copper on a giant river-coast system. You can see everything going out of Yuyang. Well at least I hope you can. The fog in this game is really nasty...

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1140046861

Pretty decent income for turn 93. Without a ton of min-maxing. I haven't upgraded everything yet either.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1140046970

[Zak]

I think I have worked it out. The most efficent is to have as few cities trading as possible. I was just wondering if somehow it was wierd. 2 caravans trading with eachother somehow produced more

Every city will consume a fixed ammount of goods. So adding a silk to a city won't consume more "units" of silk. Just instead of it being external trade its now internal trade. Yes having more bazaar will effect it. But they will just split it among them self not actually produce more. Especially noticable in naval trade. I havemany routs of roughly the same value all going into one city while it also gives it self local specilists.

It looks like internal trade is inefficent compared to external. As my producing city makes 67 (in goods not local) as a 101 city. But in exports 190 (in goods not local) to a 94 pop city. Which is probably related to a trade modifier.

With docks I have a 14 city empire with no caravans and I can stretch it even further. When doing naval one city has can reach a very very large area. Naval also has a x5 where land is capped at x4 so you will make more money. So I am currently making 1540 in my primary which would be cut down to 1232. Naval also suffers in local goods but this is componsated by the higher value. As each city will be trading with eachother but not in the high value goods.

So a naval costs 200 upkeep for the primary and 50 for every one connected. Once I need to set up naval hubs it will cost 320 each. Land cost 180 for each hub. But a single naval can cover a distance close to 3 markets in perfect spacing in each direction. So on just a mouth of a river this is over 9 markets replaced with a single naval. 3 to the south, 3 to the north, and 3 to the west possibly more possible less as rivers branch out spreading it further.

[actionhanz]

bazars have 2 fonctions

1. produce undefined local goods for export and internal trade. it shows up in the income tab of the city. revenue for exports increase with pop of receiving neighboring cities which dont need a bazar. revenues internally increase with the pop size of the city with the bazar. worth building in every city? in high pop talking 100+ here cities and in peace times only, so no.

2. export trade goods made in the city with the bazar to nearby cities. that is copper, jade, ceramics, silk, pilgrams, horses, steel and bronze. the other cities dont need a bazar.one building produces enough goods to satisfy the demand of the entire world. with basic econmics you get the idea.

you have 3 reasonable choices imo.
1. build one central production city with a market and dont bother with small outlying cities. late game with like 10x100+l sized cities you might want to push it with a well placed market+caravancy.

2. forget the markets and caravancies and use the rivers. build one big port in your production city and a quay in the other cities within range of that port. not worth fuzzing about the odd city not having access.

3. try to make use of bonus resources and build a market in every city producing a trade good but only have 1 such building for your empire and maybe try to increase your balance with well placed caravancies or sea networks once you got several big cities not getting any of the good stuff. but make backup saves and compare your balance. the upkeep may outweigh the income early/midgame.

it is worth noting that like mines many trade buildings will eventually pay for themselves via internal trade. silk, ceramics steel and bronze with imerial era techs. so even if you have more than one of these in your empire its not that bad but not efficien because the initial price and upkeep is very high and you need the money for stuff that matters. HUGE walls, gotta have walls people, and the almighty angry peasant pitchfork of doom army stack are way higher on the priority list.

edit: either i am a very slow typer or this community is very helpful or both :D my post was in response to cadfan17

[sausages]

Originally posted by TheGrouch91:

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1140046861

Pretty decent income for turn 93. Without a ton of min-maxing. I haven't upgraded everything yet either.

3000 income at turn 87, I guess I really need to weork on my game.

[TheGrouch]

Well this is a pretty easy start. Only one who could bother me is Shang and they usually get involved in some other conflict so I could build up my economy without any trouble. Also found no bandits at all even on very hard... lucky I guess. Speaking of luck, having both jade and copper so close together is insanely lucky.

This was a game with Di btw. Shu can have similar results with its massive river system and fairly isolated area.

Also as you can see I tried building cities closer together than most people do which is much better early and midgame but does not have as much lategame potential as my cities will be smaller.

[Zak]

But what is yout revenue and not net? As if you have expensive buildings It can reduce it quite a lot. In my current turn 134 WU I am making 10340. But armies are expensive so my income is quite low.

[TheGrouch]

I make exactly 5000 per turn. My army only cost about 400 because again, I met no resistance. Buildings are 800 and edicts are another 800. I just started to use the growth from the land edict and am still upgrading my copper mine and my ceramics workshop. Once I have enough authority I will also settle at least 5 more cities along the cost and the river in Manchuria. So I expect significant growth.

If all goes well I think I can at least double or even triple my income in the next 50 to 75 turns.

[Sanvone]

Trade by the end game get's pretty ridiculous. You can get around 600 income from exporting to single 100 pop city from ceramics with all bonuses applied with every faction. So you end trade income in tens of thousands from single city. And around 200-300 from Silk, Iron/Steel, Pilgrims, Copper.

[sausages]

Originally posted by Sanvone:

Trade by the end game get's pretty ridiculous...

End game? of course.

However, he's still in turn 87 in the screenshot. While he did clarify that his army only cost him 400 but my best game so far around similar turns is still like 1k short from his.

[TheGrouch]

Again this was basically a dream start. You rarely have copper and jade so close together. Those are the 2 most important resources on my list. Also I did try a more quick strategy with more smaller cities which leads to an explosion in income early game but starts to slow down faster than the big city strategy. Also trading via river and ocean is much quicker and more efficient than land trade because it has no tech requirement. (should probably be changed imho)

Once you get the hang of how trading and growth works you can get some pretty impressive numbers. I'm still trying to figure some stuff out but so far I'm improving every game. Caravans are still a thing I'm not fully good with. Their income seems to be calculated in a really whacky way.

[Sanvone]

End game? of course.

However, he's still in turn 87 in the screenshot. While he did clarify that his army only cost him 400 but my best game so far around similar turns is still like 1k short from his.

Well as he said - he pretty much got it all. White Di are one of the easier Herding Factions cause they start on farmable land + coastline, don't get any technology rate penalties and still get access to herders goodies like free settlers to support this play.

It is easy to focus on turtling early and then just don't have enough time to win the game under standard 300 turns time limit. Last time I won GC by Conquest I had 3 factions vassalised by turn 100. Which means that there is way less cash to spend on infrastructure and naval trade is realy expensive to set up.