When does trade and industry turn a profit?

[SteelBear]

Haven't got that far in, but i noticed that both my bazaar and my foundry are turning a loss even wiht four cities to export to. Do the cities i export to be a certain size for these buildings to make sense to build? And how can i tell before building them so I don't repeat mistake?

[Sanvone]

Trade income depends on population you are exporting to (and in case of bazaar building tree city in which it is build size). Usually the more population you are exporting to the higher the profit. Also if the city is producing certain good then it won't import it. If it is importing it from several sources the income goes down.
Still you will need few cities with population of 40+ to break even with Pottery/Silk. Bronze is currently the worst trading good and most likely won't pay for itself until you have population almost in thousand so just build it when you can upgrade it to Iron/Steel Foundry at lvl 3 of settlement so you can profit from Iron/Steel or you need it for lvl 3 Armory/Cataphracts in Imperial Era.

Trade with others faction is more complex because your culture and their culture affects it's value. And usually AI city building results in less profitable trade for everyone (building pottery workshops and bazaars in too many cities)

Also if you have copper/jade/pilgrims you will profit way more than just sticking to standard Pottery/Silk. But there are also resources that boost trade income as well as technologies.

In short - Trade is mid-late game thing. It usually can double your income. you shouldn't think about it sooner than turn 50 and the later you build it the sooner it pays for itself and generate profit.

Best Regards!

[SteelBear]

Ouch, i was afraid of that. appears I got tricked by the advisor claiming trade was important among the first advices. Guess they meant later on. I dont suppose there is any way to see the upkeep and expected profit before building a bazaar/foundry or similar buildings? I figured I was supposed to build them early since I start with bazaar and foundry is early tech, but then i checked income and upkeep...

[Surtur]

Great advice Sanvone :)

[Fab]

I think we all falled for it once, and only after you learn your lesson and you build and expand your cities before relying on trade :)

Initially your income will come from population (taxes), so make sure to expand fast. I would also encourage people to disband units they don't need - the money you can save on upkeep is very important. For example once you've successfully sieged a city on one side of the map, you might want to bring back your entire stack to your next target located on the other side! But if that takes you let's say 10 turn, you might have to spend 1000 in coins. Where as by disbanding and rebuilding them, you will lose the experience but will save a lot of money!

[CaoLex]

Originally posted by SteelBear:

Ouch, i was afraid of that. appears I got tricked by the advisor claiming trade was important among the first advices. Guess they meant later on.

Trade just has been nerfed too much. It has been profitable in early game and insanely so later.

[tolaburke]

So effectively, you must hunt for things like rhinos, as they are your only early income. You'll really need to learn the map for this. That seems kinda foul, really, given the game shoves trade in your face, and the early researchs are required to even do trade, the whole thing says 'hey. do this' but it's too little.

I mean....Consider the Shang. They start right next to a Mulberry Bush. So you found a town, you research Silk, you build the Bazaar(400+80 upkeep), you build the Silk Maker(1000+100 upkeep). You even build roads. What do you get? 30. WITH the bonus. Given that Mulberry gives 30%, than it's be about 20 without.

If all trade is like this then something's badly wrong. Trade must at least pay for itself, or what's the point?

[Sanvone]

Resource locations on Grand Campaign and Custom maps are randomized each time you start a new game. Only thing to learn where mountains or good settling locations are.

Trade pays for itself once you are exporting to enough population (we are talking about 100-200 population at least) so it becomes a thing between turn 50-100. Generally if you have 3-4 cities with 40+ population in trading range you can consider it a good investment. And if you can create waterborne trade you are golden easily getting around 1000 income from trade alone.

I mostly like current balance. Trade easily doubles your income mid-late game

Best Regards!

[baoyi_liu]

Originally posted by tolaburke:

So effectively, you must hunt for things like rhinos, as they are your only early income. You'll really need to learn the map for this. That seems kinda foul, really, given the game shoves trade in your face, and the early researchs are required to even do trade, the whole thing says 'hey. do this' but it's too little.

I mean....Consider the Shang. They start right next to a Mulberry Bush. So you found a town, you research Silk, you build the Bazaar(400+80 upkeep), you build the Silk Maker(1000+100 upkeep). You even build roads. What do you get? 30. WITH the bonus. Given that Mulberry gives 30%, than it's be about 20 without.

If all trade is like this then something's badly wrong. Trade must at least pay for itself, or what's the point?

You just described (one of) the reasons why trade was despised as 'no good' by the traditional Chinese political philosophy. Trade is meaningless if you're small or isolated or when you have subsistence argriculture as your major form of production. Only when there is demand (in this game it means adjacent population) did trade start to make sense.

This game has been so wonderful that it teaches players how it feels to be a ruler of pre-modern China. So much you want to do but so little you can do and good intentions turn out to be disastrous.

[Philippe_at_bay]

Trade tends to be a really flaccid source of income. Think long and hard before building a bazaar or a wharf. It's a long game so over the course of a couple of hundred turns you'll eventually make your investment back and turn a profit, but a score of turns with negative returns will do ugly things to trade route's ROA. I try to only build them in small towns that are in range of two or three large ones, and it's not a bad idea to build roads first (if you can afford the labor unrest).

[tolaburke]

It's a long game so over the course of a couple of hundred turns you'll eventually make your investment back and turn a profit

The default turn time, which many won't mess with, is 300. 'A couple of hundred turns' is problematic at best, utterly useless at worst. It leads to 'trap choices' and avoidance.

What would be nice is some sort of preview of how much a Bazaar would be worth before you build it.

[Sanvone]

Few hundreds of turns is most likely overstatement. It shouldn't take more than 50 turns at most to provide pure profit. I don't think it takes me more than 20 turns on average to pay for initial investments after reducing upkeeps from income.

[aaror]

My rule of thumb is "upgrade city, build bazaar." It works pretty well. If your city has population below 40 it is almost impossible to make money with trade. I often find that I am losing money with trade for a few turns with that rule, but it is easy to remember.

[Sanvone]

And you upgrade city asap?

[aaror]

If I have the money as soon as I can. I upgrade at population 40 if I can, but often the first few cities can reach population 45 before I upgrade. I try to avoid well fields.

[Sanvone]

So as I thought. I'm curious if I'm the only one who is upgrading between 50-60 population.
Best Regards!