Locking players from the reward is a really bad game design

[VinylNarcissus]

I just watched through the demo of the game and i have something to tell. I'm not a game developer, i'm just a mere player, but locking player from the reward chest which he can see, is a bad game design. The main problem with that is the fact that it looks like a mockery, player fought the boss using only game provided mechanics yet he still treated as a loser, since he didn't knew that using the feather will lock him from the reward. I understand the roots of this decision, to push player on to another layer of challenge, win the hard fight without using the healing items, but, first of all, healing is a crucial part of that kind of a game, your healing items in ds-like games is your only saviour and the only thing that you can rely on, so it's just wrong to make challenges around that, and, the second of all, DS1 had a similar mechanic, you could cut the enemy tail to get a bonus reward, sometimes it was a really challenging, but even if you didn't cut it, game doesn't tell you that you lost something and made you feel bad about it, so, you see how it works, cutting the tail is a game mechanic in itself and it doesn't related to anything you used to and feel save to use. And even when you didn't cut it, game doesn't show to you your lost reward and doesn't make you feel bad about it. And even they got rid of it in the later games, because it's still was somewhat not fair, since you had to know about it in advance.

Sorry for my english, not my native language, feel free to correct me.

[carmilla]

You're clearly not a game designer because this is a common trope in metroidvanias. It entices the player to come back later when they have new abilities. It's to show "you can't get this yet, but you will be able to later."

[.]

loooooooooooooooooooool. Youve clearly never played a metroidvaia.

[ElectroRanger]

Originally posted by Pent:

You're clearly not a game designer because this is a common trope in metroidvanias. It entices the player to come back later when they have new abilities. It's to show "you can't get this yet, but you will be able to later."

But it's different if it's not aquired by new abilities. OP just meant he doesn't like how the game explicitly throws at you an unachievable loot if you didnt fight correctly because you used healing items.

Personally nothing wrong with rewarding players for valiant effort and managing not to get damaged as much, sure is annoying however if it turns to be the only way to play because the reward is pretty damn useful rather than bragging rights.

Overall I think the bad design here is because I don't think the game tells you about it, how you can only aquire the extra loot without using heals while also presenting the actual loot rather than keeping it hidden. Didn't watch the discussed footage though so correct me if wrong.

Also, op, Order of Ecclesia did the same except with medals for not getting hit in a boss fight. It ain't a problem if there's no way to know about this reward because overall I think it's one of those things that would be cool if the player discovered it on their own

[carmilla]

Originally posted by AlloyForce:

Originally posted by Pent:

You're clearly not a game designer because this is a common trope in metroidvanias. It entices the player to come back later when they have new abilities. It's to show "you can't get this yet, but you will be able to later."

But it's different if it's not aquired by new abilities. OP just meant he doesn't like how the game explicitly throws at you an unachievable loot if you didnt fight correctly because you used healing items.

Personally nothing wrong with rewarding players for valiant effort and managing not to get damaged as much, sure is annoying however if it turns to be the only way to play because the reward is pretty damn useful rather than bragging rights.

Overall I think the bad design here is because I don't think the game tells you about it, how you can only aquire the extra loot without using heals while also presenting the actual loot rather than keeping it hidden. Didn't watch the discussed footage though so correct me if wrong.

Also, op, Order of Ecclesia did the same except with medals for not getting hit in a boss fight. It ain't a problem if there's no way to know about this reward because overall I think it's one of those things that would be cool if the player discovered it on their own

given that this game will likely have NG+'s, I don't really care that the game didn't explicitly say "hey you get a treasure if you don't heal!" because all that does is promote save scumming. It's better if players magically stumble upon it be it by being really good or a fluke instead of the game having to outright incentivize you. Plus if you knew outright it would make the fight all the more frustrating as players would want to restart on every death or near death without really learning the game.

[VinylNarcissus]

Originally posted by Pent:

You're clearly not a game designer because this is a common trope in metroidvanias. It entices the player to come back later when they have new abilities. It's to show "you can't get this yet, but you will be able to later."

I wasn't talking about the abilities that open you a new ways, like double jump, wall jump, etc etc... You see, in demo there is a mini-boss, and after a fight you can climb a ladder to pick up the treasure chest, BUT only if you won the mini-boss fight without using the healing item, sorry if i wasn't clear enough in my words.

[VinylNarcissus]

Originally posted by AlloyForce:

Originally posted by Pent:

You're clearly not a game designer because this is a common trope in metroidvanias. It entices the player to come back later when they have new abilities. It's to show "you can't get this yet, but you will be able to later."

But it's different if it's not aquired by new abilities. OP just meant he doesn't like how the game explicitly throws at you an unachievable loot if you didnt fight correctly because you used healing items.

Personally nothing wrong with rewarding players for valiant effort and managing not to get damaged as much, sure is annoying however if it turns to be the only way to play because the reward is pretty damn useful rather than bragging rights.

Overall I think the bad design here is because I don't think the game tells you about it, how you can only aquire the extra loot without using heals while also presenting the actual loot rather than keeping it hidden. Didn't watch the discussed footage though so correct me if wrong.

Also, op, Order of Ecclesia did the same except with medals for not getting hit in a boss fight. It ain't a problem if there's no way to know about this reward because overall I think it's one of those things that would be cool if the player discovered it on their own

https://youtu.be/dCTOGacU-Ts?t=48m53s

I don't know if i can or can not share some youtube videos here, but it was a stream with a developers themselves, you see how fast happiness from overcoming the hard battle turns to the frustration of not playing the way developers wanted you to play.

[darksoul]

Giving out (special) rewards to players for overcoming certain challenges during certain parts of a game are a cool way to motivate players to actually try these challenges. But, in my humble opinion, players should be REWARDED (with something special/extra) when they complete these challenges, but never PUNISHED (by locking them out of the only reward) when NOT trying/completing them.

[ElectroRanger]

Originally posted by darksoul:

Giving out (special) rewards to players for overcoming certain challenges during certain parts of a game are a cool way to motivate players to actually try these challenges. But, in my humble opinion, players should be REWARDED (with something special/extra) when they complete these challenges, but never PUNISHED (by locking them out of the only reward) when NOT trying/completing them.

I think you almost agreed with youraelf there. Maybe defeating that miniboss as a reward is to continue forward to a new area, but the extra content is in that chest for perhaps more expert players. Also minibos =/= special challenge, especially if your mercy is that its a no heal rather than no hit.

[darksoul]

Originally posted by AlloyForce:

Originally posted by darksoul:

Giving out (special) rewards to players for overcoming certain challenges during certain parts of a game are a cool way to motivate players to actually try these challenges. But, in my humble opinion, players should be REWARDED (with something special/extra) when they complete these challenges, but never PUNISHED (by locking them out of the only reward) when NOT trying/completing them.

I think you almost agreed with youraelf there. Maybe defeating that miniboss as a reward is to continue forward to a new area, but the extra content is in that chest for perhaps more expert players. Also minibos =/= special challenge, especially if your mercy is that its a no heal rather than no hit.

I haven´t seen this particular video, but my post was about if the chest was the only reward for killing that boss/miniboss( next to stuff like XP and/or standard currency, I personally don´t count them as a "reward" per se, but part of the gameplay-system). Of course if there was something else that the player gains, like access to a new level or a new ability then that would be ok. With special challenge I meant something in the line of not using healing items or not being hit, not the boss itself.

In this case, with a boss at the end of a path I would say: You defeat it, you get a reward (a normal chest for example). Complete the special challenge (don´t use any healing items) you get a special chest, with a special reward. In both cases you get rewarded for beating an optional boss.

But as I said, haven´t seen the video; it is more of a general thing.

[KeiKube]

Fair points all around. The phoenix chest is a unique challenge scattered throughout the world of Death's Gambit. They are not exclusively present at the end of a boss fight, and are never the reward for completing a challenge. Typically they are found through discovery within the world, and encourage a more careful systematic approach to dealing with enemies as you navigate.
With regards to making it a challenge that revolves around the healing item, DG has other mechanics, like augmentation, where you can sacrifice your feathers for increased damage. It's entirely possible to beat the game without ever healing. High level players are definitely likely to augment all of their feathers, but that's certainly not a requirement. The systems of the game encourage different playstyles based on what you find comfortable.

[brotherkm]

Thank god, I've read this before buying. I don't want to be locked out of simple chests because of some really hardcore challenge stuff. Dead Cells taught me a lesson about diversity and handmade difficulty in indie game...
I've always thought, people do some challenge runs without healing or at lvl 1 in DS and Bloodborne not to get a chest but for fun or this cool video at their channel or a note is some Guinness book of world's greatest gamespeedrunners, i don't know about.

There is a tip from a clueless gamer like me (tho I've got my share of plats on ps in 10 yrs): make a game rewarding enough so people would think their time wasn't wasted and they definitely will reward you with positive comments and will spend more time in game doing crazy challenges.
Don't show them heir lack of commitment in face locking rewards. Mobile Chinese f2p trash do that asking for money or tremendous amounts of time to get something teased.

[AuburnRDM]

Just a heads up: if you rest and come back later without using a healing item, you can still get the treasure. This isn't something that's one-and-done in the game, you can always go back to try and get it. You don't even need to fight the boss again or anything. I don't see any issue with this.

[ElectroRanger]

Originally posted by AuburnRDM:

Just a heads up: if you rest and come back later without using a healing item, you can still get the treasure. This isn't something that's one-and-done in the game, you can always go back to try and get it. You don't even need to fight the boss again or anything. I don't see any issue with this.

Okay but then that's the entire point of the challenge out the window. The miniboss should be at least part of that no healing challenge in my opinion.

[Codester]

Originally posted by VinylNarcissus:

I just watched through the demo of the game and i have something to tell. I'm not a game developer, i'm just a mere player, but locking player from the reward chest which he can see, is a bad game design. The main problem with that is the fact that it looks like a mockery, player fought the boss using only game provided mechanics yet he still treated as a loser, since he didn't knew that using the feather will lock him from the reward. I understand the roots of this decision, to push player on to another layer of challenge, win the hard fight without using the healing items, but, first of all, healing is a crucial part of that kind of a game, your healing items in ds-like games is your only saviour and the only thing that you can rely on, so it's just wrong to make challenges around that, and, the second of all, DS1 had a similar mechanic, you could cut the enemy tail to get a bonus reward, sometimes it was a really challenging, but even if you didn't cut it, game doesn't tell you that you lost something and made you feel bad about it, so, you see how it works, cutting the tail is a game mechanic in itself and it doesn't related to anything you used to and feel save to use. And even when you didn't cut it, game doesn't show to you your lost reward and doesn't make you feel bad about it. And even they got rid of it in the later games, because it's still was somewhat not fair, since you had to know about it in advance.

Sorry for my english, not my native language, feel free to correct me.

You don't even know what you're talking about man. What you think is happening here is not correct.

[King Donco of Punhcistania]

jesus you are such a casual. how are you complaining about this? just get bettter at it. didnt get it the first time? keep trying. life revolves around what you put out is what you get