What do you guys think of WB copyrighting the Nemesis system?

[Raziel]

This may be abit late, but recently the WB corporation copyrighted the Nemesis system for a couple decades,making other companies unable to do a system like it. Do you think it was justified or a selfish act that will ultimately hurt the games industry.

[гойдазавр]

Yes

[Easy Target]

They spent the time and $ developing it, of course they need to protect it, only reason to be in business is to make $.

The next step would to have it modular so it hooks into as many engines as it can and then license it out for others to use.

[Lein]

I hope nobody in-house got screwed over by it, but other than that it's completely fair. It was a great idea that apparently nobody else could think of. You don't owe the world the benefits of your labor.

Like Easy Target said, licensing it out would be the ideal new step.

[GamingWithSilvertail]

Why do you think other companies are affected by this?

WB cant do much about another dev team making a similar system from scratch. As long as they dont say the Nemesis, ea, or Inspired by Nemesis or what, its fine or use the content or what not

[Darth Revan]

Originally posted by GamingWithSilvertail:

Why do you think other companies are affected by this?

WB cant do much about another dev team making a similar system from scratch. As long as they dont say the Nemesis, ea, or Inspired by Nemesis or what, its fine or use the content or what not

As far as i know it's not that easy, they did not patent the name but the mechanics themselves I think:

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2021-02-08-warner-bros-finally-secures-patent-for-shadow-of-mordors-nemesis-system

[gaqo]

It seems like profit vs creativity. So from a gamer point of view it's bad news.
I want games to be continually competing and stealing ideas from each other, it drives the rapid development.

From profit point of view. Developers will develop their own systems.

[WingedKagouti]

1) It's a patent and not copyright. Patents protect ideas, copyright only protect actual works (like a specific game, movie or song).
2) Patents only cover the exact implementation of the idea as it is written down in the patent application.

Other games can implement a Nemesis system similar to that of Shadow of Mordor/War, as long as there are substantial differences in the mechanics.

In the end, the patent is basically just a marketing tool to get more eyes on the franchise. The cost of drafting the patent is minescule compared to the overall advertisement budget and the filing fee is even smaller.

[DISRuPTED]

A bunch of games from the 90's already had the majority of the concepts used in the nemesis system. Now WB is acting like they didn't got influenced by any game of the past? That this idea came out of nowhere in their little minds and now they can claim the mechanics that are involved behind the nemesis system although the majority of the ideas they had come from observing games created decades ago? BS.

[Darth Revan]

Originally posted by WingedKagouti:

1) It's a patent and not copyright. Patents protect ideas, copyright only protect actual works (like a specific game, movie or song).
2) Patents only cover the exact implementation of the idea as it is written down in the patent application.

Other games can implement a Nemesis system similar to that of Shadow of Mordor/War, as long as there are substantial differences in the mechanics.

In the end, the patent is basically just a marketing tool to get more eyes on the franchise. The cost of drafting the patent is minescule compared to the overall advertisement budget and the filing fee is even smaller.

well, i dont think that it is basically just a marketing tool:

https://patents.google.com/patent/US20160279522A1/en

i mean of course developers can build similar systems that are distinct enough so that they dont violate the patent and would have to buy a license but i still dont think that this is only a marketing tool.

[tomwithtime]

Originally posted by Legatus Lucanus:

Originally posted by GamingWithSilvertail:

Why do you think other companies are affected by this?

WB cant do much about another dev team making a similar system from scratch. As long as they dont say the Nemesis, ea, or Inspired by Nemesis or what, its fine or use the content or what not

As far as i know it's not that easy, they did not patent the name but the mechanics themselves I think:

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2021-02-08-warner-bros-finally-secures-patent-for-shadow-of-mordors-nemesis-system

It says this first:

"This encompasses a hierarchy of procedurally-generated NPCs that interact with and remember the player's actions. The patent also covers changes to the NPCs' positions in the hierarchy, as well as their appearance and behaviour, again based on the actions of the player"

But then at the bottom it says:

"However, studios are still able to create their own systems that are similar but have enough distinct aspects to stand out, such as the Mercenaries system seen in recent Assassin's Creed titles"

It seems silly to me to own the idea of an NPC surviving a stab to the eye might return with an eye patch. The fact that it is the first procedural implementation within a hierarchy is unique, but I would argue they're just the first to execute it, not conceive the idea. We've seen non procedural examples of this in the past and in movies. For something you can identify other examples of, aren't the patents and copyright laws weaker or at least easier to skirt around?

Just build your own procedural system with dynamically changing hierarchies and injuries from player actions and say it's based on the real life history of ancient rome. Letting stuff like this go will inevitably just make society worse off, because it will remove the need for competition and innovation, like when telecom lobbyists prevent competition or municipal fiber and then the best you can get in that area is 30mb for $200.

[Dopey Shepard]

Originally posted by Raziel:

This may be abit late, but recently the WB corporation copyrighted the Nemesis system for a couple decades,making other companies unable to do a system like it. Do you think it was justified or a selfish act that will ultimately hurt the games industry.

What do you think of Katamari Damacy devs who patented the whole rolling and gluing things on yourself mechanic? The reason you don't see it nowadays is because of the patent. Are they also bad people for it? No? Then neither is WB

[tomwithtime]

Originally posted by Dopey Shepard:

Originally posted by Raziel:

This may be abit late, but recently the WB corporation copyrighted the Nemesis system for a couple decades,making other companies unable to do a system like it. Do you think it was justified or a selfish act that will ultimately hurt the games industry.

What do you think of Katamari Damacy devs who patented the whole rolling and gluing things on yourself mechanic? The reason you don't see it nowadays is because of the patent. Are they also bad people for it? No? Then neither is WB

Yes. Just like the patent on minigames during loading screens - these patents seem to ultimately hurt consumers and other devs. If another game tries to take the idea and does it poorly, it's not going to sell well. It is only protecting companies from other devs who would do it better.

I can see a situation where this protects an idea for an indie company - but is that any better? 15 years where a AAA studio can't make a better version of a mechanic? The indie game is probably going to get 90%+ of its sales in the first 1-3 years. This seems more like something big companies want so they don't have to compete.

The example you give is even more stupid to me. Why is that an idea that can be patented? Any kid who drops a wet gumball is going to witness the inspiration for that mechanic. The geriatrics in charge are unable or unwilling to understand why this is a bad idea, they only know big companies will continue giving them money if they do it. Few of them share this hobby so they don't care and probably never will. I just hope we can do better when more young people are in government.

[Dopey Shepard]

Originally posted by tomwithtime:

Originally posted by Dopey Shepard:

What do you think of Katamari Damacy devs who patented the whole rolling and gluing things on yourself mechanic? The reason you don't see it nowadays is because of the patent. Are they also bad people for it? No? Then neither is WB

Yes. Just like the patent on minigames during loading screens - these patents seem to ultimately hurt consumers and other devs. If another game tries to take the idea and does it poorly, it's not going to sell well. It is only protecting companies from other devs who would do it better.

I can see a situation where this protects an idea for an indie company - but is that any better? 15 years where a AAA studio can't make a better version of a mechanic? The indie game is probably going to get 90%+ of its sales in the first 1-3 years. This seems more like something big companies want so they don't have to compete.

The example you give is even more stupid to me. Why is that an idea that can be patented? Any kid who drops a wet gumball is going to witness the inspiration for that mechanic. The geriatrics in charge are unable or unwilling to understand why this is a bad idea, they only know big companies will continue giving them money if they do it. Few of them share this hobby so they don't care and probably never will. I just hope we can do better when more young people are in government.

My example is stupid? What? There are literally NO games like katamari damacy out there because of the patent, how is this example stupid in any way, shape or form?

The idea was patented because they were the first to implement such mechanics, plain and simple, a lot of games were the first to do so. WB were the first to introduce "nemesis" system into their games so why should their art and creation be stolen and implemented by others for profit? If you're gonna make your gay, make it on fair basis or otherwise you get a lawsuit

Also, patents are not exactly permanent. The reason GTA SA/GTA IV actually got some recent patches is because they had to patch out certain songs out of their games because they no longer had the ability to do so, because it was like a 10 year contract or something. I assume same works with patents to the point where a company that would want to implement certain mechanics into their game would either have to ask permission or pay a tribute to the guys with the patent.

[Lein]

While I don't think it's anything unfair on WB to play by the rules as they are, I do agree that "Nobody gets to patent any idea" is a better system overall. But in a world where patenting is a thing (or at least in video game ideas), I won't say it's "unfair" or "not right" on WB's part. Just one of those "Don't hate the player, hate the game" type of situations I guess.

[tomwithtime]

Originally posted by Dopey Shepard:

Originally posted by tomwithtime:

Yes. Just like the patent on minigames during loading screens - these patents seem to ultimately hurt consumers and other devs. If another game tries to take the idea and does it poorly, it's not going to sell well. It is only protecting companies from other devs who would do it better.

I can see a situation where this protects an idea for an indie company - but is that any better? 15 years where a AAA studio can't make a better version of a mechanic? The indie game is probably going to get 90%+ of its sales in the first 1-3 years. This seems more like something big companies want so they don't have to compete.

The example you give is even more stupid to me. Why is that an idea that can be patented? Any kid who drops a wet gumball is going to witness the inspiration for that mechanic. The geriatrics in charge are unable or unwilling to understand why this is a bad idea, they only know big companies will continue giving them money if they do it. Few of them share this hobby so they don't care and probably never will. I just hope we can do better when more young people are in government.

My example is stupid? What? There are literally NO games like katamari damacy out there because of the patent, how is this example stupid in any way, shape or form?

The idea was patented because they were the first to implement such mechanics, plain and simple, a lot of games were the first to do so. WB were the first to introduce "nemesis" system into their games so why should their art and creation be stolen and implemented by others for profit? If you're gonna make your gay, make it on fair basis or otherwise you get a lawsuit

Also, patents are not exactly permanent. The reason GTA SA/GTA IV actually got some recent patches is because they had to patch out certain songs out of their games because they no longer had the ability to do so, because it was like a 10 year contract or something. I assume same works with patents to the point where a company that would want to implement certain mechanics into their game would either have to ask permission or pay a tribute to the guys with the patent.

My bad - your example is a good one to illustrate that our patent laws in this space are stupid. Katamari isn't some ground breaking research effort, you could argue it's how mass/gravity work so they're getting a patent on information that has been in the public domain since 1687. I gave the example of something sticky rolling in the dirt to accumulate clutter, but gravity works better to explain why more things would accumulate after the sticky core is completely covered.

Maybe I'm just getting old, but it saddens me that it's ok to patent an idea for such a long time - relative to our lifespan - when what is being patented is just execution of publicly available information.