Question about Shelob, Celebrimbor, the ending (spoilers obviously)

[Kamatsu]

Hi, I have some questions regarding Shelob's visions, how accurate they are, how can we trust.... and such. But 1st, lets get some things out of the way:

- I do not own the game
- I have not pirated the game
- Only reason for not owning it is due to budgeting.
- I have watched cutscenes from the start of the game & the ending
- I have not seen all cutscene's.

Now that we have that out the way, after watching what I have... it makes me wonder:

1. How can we be certain Celebrimbor will just become another evil like Sauron and invade Middle-Earth?

Yes he is a victory-at-all-cost's type of person who doesn't care about how many people die or get destroyed. However the whole reason he's a wraith is because he fought against Sauron, lost and then watched his family get butchered by Sauron in front of his eye's. Because of this he couldn't move on into the afterlife and stayed on as a wraith... his whole purpose is to seek vengeance on Sauron.

From what I've seen, we only have Shelob's word that once he's dominated Sauron he'll go on to replicate Sauron's intended actions and invade middle-earth. Are there any other signs, comments, etc that show that this will happen? Or just what Shelob told us?

2. Is there any indication that Shelob's whole purpose isn't simply to defend Sauron from someone who can stop him if allowed to?

I mean, it seems her whole purpose for showing the visions and such to Talion is to turn him against Celebrimbor and ensure Sauron doesn't get dominated. Because if she's to believed, Talion & Celebrimbor would succeed in that... and thus end Saurons reign-of-terror.

And when you look at the outcome of her actions... she's stopped Sauron getting dominated, and she's ensured Talion becomes a servant of Sauron.

3. Or is Shelob acting on her own, to get control of the One Ring of Saurons, by ensuring Sauron is incapable of doing anything, and putting herself in the path of the ringbearer?

Her actions by turning Talion against Celebrimbor ensured that Celebrimbor would fight against Sauron at a disadvantage, and in the end they get locked into an possibly eternal battle within Saurons body for control and domination. Assuming that this makes both of them incabable of taking advantage of anything... this leaves Shelob free.

Now if you believe she has visions of the future, surely it's possible she's seen that the One Ring will soon be found and be making it's way to be destroyed in Mount Doom... and that with careful planning she can get Gollum to lead Frodo through her caves. And when he's there, that will give her the chance to take up the One Ring... and with Sauron being locked into an eternal internal battle with Celebrimbor, she'd liekly be at no risk of the negative effect's of the ring since Sauron won't be able to influence her.

Now obviously we know Gollum's plan would be to take up his "Precious" after Shelob killed and ate Frodo, but his mind would be easy to trick and fool into thinking that was the case... regardless of the truth. Shelob would just have to tell Gollum she had no interest in the One Ring and he could have it, all he'd have to do is lead Frodo into her caves and he'd get it. He'd jump at that chance.
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So that's my thoughts / questions.

[Bop]

Hi it was is yes sir teen bomb. Fun win as she gets out from.

[Kamatsu]

Anyone with any thoughts/answers, other than the above spambot reply?

[Hika Elm]

Shelob wanted the prevent Celebrimbor's victory.
Sauron losed the War of the Ring when Frodo destroyed the One Ring.

But if Talion dominated Sauron, the Bright Lord would have conquered the Middle-Earth.

[Malaficus Shaikan]

Originally posted by Kamatsu:

Anyone with any thoughts/answers, other than the above spambot reply?

I will try but as you pointed out:
The story isnt really the game strong point.
The game biggest selling point is the gameplay and nemmises system.
I would suggest you ignore the story(I have) and simple play the game.

But to answer your questions:
1: Celebrimbor story is one of fallen pride.
Like a certain angel we all hate.
The rings corrupt there wearer.
This is what tolkien made very clear.
Anyone who uses the rings of power will become like sauron eventually.
As you play the game Celebrimbor will comment quiet often that middle earth needs order.
Like a certain galatic empire.
Order: not freedom, not justice, not mercy but the same order he is bringing to the orcs.
And he doesnt even realize it.
He is a knight templar, a zealot who will enslave everyone for increasingly less justification.
And unlike sauron his ring isnt in the hands of a hobbit.
Remember the west only won the war via assasination of sauron(ring in lava).
The evidence isnt just Shelob's visions but also in his personality.
His increasing ammoral behavior.
He is falling but you dont see that if you only watch the cutsences.
Alot of little hints are drop during gameplay.

2: Shelob is a different from of evil.
Sauron wants to dominated all of middle earth(including her).
He is a threat to her but so is Celebrimbor if he succeseds.
She doesnt care in the slightest about anyone but herself but she is a master manipulator(you have to be if you want to survive in mordor)
Both Sauron and Celebrimbor are a threat to her.
But Sauron defeat has been forseen.
Where Celebrimbor she forsaw he would succesed.
Talion was but a puppet.
His puppeteers Celebrimbor & Shelob.
Him becoming a servant of sauron isnt a problem to her.
Aslong he keeps sauron distracted long enough for a certain ring to get destroyed he served his purpos.
You need to keep in mind that Shelob is only interested in how it benefits her.
She wants Sauron & Celebrimbor defeated simply because they pose a threat to her.
Middle earth can burn for all she care's but self-preservation is her sole motivator.

3: Honestly i dont think the Shelob from the movies is anything more then a very large spider.
But the ability to see into the future isnt as simple as games loves to pretend it is.
Try to predict every choice you are going to make today.
No mather how tiny.
Now try doing that for every family member.
Now try for your city.
Now for your country.
See how many variables there are?
The ability to see into the future is like looking for a specifict grain of sand in a continent spanning desert that constantly grows.
It could be that she forsaw frodo failing to reach mount doom.
And by attacking him the ring ended up into sam's hand for a shortwhile.
Remember at the end frodo kept the ring for himself and golem saved everyone by accident.
It could well be that those few kilometers that sam was keeping the ring safe was all the difference between frodo keeping the ring and golem stealing the ring.
After all if frodo hadnt been in mount doom would golem have fallen into the lava?

Closing thoughts:
Storytelling has improved alot of tolkiens days.
These days good vs evil stories are considered childeren stories.
Good stories have good and evil on both side's of the conflict or all four, eight, whatever number of side's are there to this conflict.

[Kamatsu]

Thank you Malaficus Shaikan for the detailed reply. Shows in many ways my thoughts about Shelob were indeed somewhat correct, well apart from my thoughts about her working for/with Sauron. But the fact she's not to br truste, is pitting Celebrimbor against Sauron, and Talion against both was on track.

Thinking about it, at least from the cutscenes I've seen... you're indeed correct that she's working just for herself, her own preservation and is actively trying to nullify any threat to her - ie Sauron, Celembrimbor, the One Ring not being destroyed, etc.

And on to the point about Celebrimbor - glad to know I did miss things. Because while I knew he was selfish and not really a 'good' person...the whole going from just beating Sauron to taking over Middle-Earth seemed a bit of a fetch from the cutscenes. Glad to see that there is development on this point outside cutscene's... so for people who listen and pay attention will get this development.

And yes, neither SoM or SoW are games for 'the story'. Most people who play it are in it for the nemisis system, the arkham style combat, etc. But it still does have a story... and I wanted to put 2 and 2 togethert to follow it correctly, and things seemed amiss based from just the cutscenes I'd seen.

Also regarding the rings corrupting - Isn't the corruption of the Human, Elvish & Dwarvish rings all because of Sauron's taint and that they are tied to the One Ring? If so, wouldn't that mean Celebrimbor's ring is frtee of that corruption as it supposedly has no tie to Sauron and isn't influenced/connected to the One Ring? Or could it be it does have a tie/connection to Sauron due to Celebrimbor's hatred of Sauron? And thus corrupt's it's user/creator is a similar manner as the riungs connected to the One Ring?

[Demon of Razgriz]

The ring doesn't have any connection to Sauron or any corruption from that. The issue is that the ring provides so much power to the holder. It's the old axiom that absolute power corrupts absolutely. It doesn't need to have any connection to Sauron.

That combined with Celebrimbor's attitude and need for vengeance creates a perfect storm for him to be just as bad as Sauron.

[Derrame]

play the game or watch all the game walkthrough and cutscenes

[mrdickinson1981]

During one cutscene Talion asks Celebrimbor just how much of your soul did you lose to the new ring. Which makes me wonder with him creating the other rings in the beginning did he use parts of his soul in there crafting as well. Which also begs the question was Celebrimbor's family his last hold on compassion. When they died he became obsessed with revenge at any cost. He no longer had his family and neither did Talion which made him the ultimate tool for Celebrimbor only Talion had more of his soul intact and his hold on love and compassion was the memory of his family and the hope to be with them again. I never saw Celebrimbor talk about his feelings or the want to be with his family again it was all about him and his need to end Sauron.

[mrdickinson1981]

I could be wrong and I missed something but I have played both games and Celebrimbor never brought up how he hoped to see his family again in the afterlife as I remember if I'm wrong my bad.