why does every LOTR fan hate this game?

[Smile]

so why do their ans hate this game? the games are the only reason i bothered to watch those 4 hour long movies. they were enjoyable though their themes were much different from the game (very very light hearted). so i was wondering, i understand that this game changes a lot of dates and such and is basically throwing out the cannon and re-writing it. but;

it's still a good story. and it's still enjoyable (except the ending imo). anyone?

[Simply_Pwned_Gaming]

Tread carefully you will get Tolkien purists to troll this topic I'm sure,but your right this is its own story tweaked for domination and violence 😁 fun as h e l l

[Smile]

yeah and what their choice of words is interesting "they're about hope and nostalgia". nostalgia. as in. done before, as in, done so much that no one in hollywood is making these movies or writing these books.

i'm sorry to say, but i can agree with most of the date-changes they hate and how the 2 nazguls identities revealed (3 if you count talion). but the theme not being about hope and happiness is really questionable. not cause it's been done so much that at this point it would be boring.
but also. this is mordor. the land the books never fully explore. the land of shadows. hell on earth basically. and another example. silmarillion. that book is THE history of tolkien's universe. and as you know, middle earth's history is dark. so tolkien's most important book is a dark backstory.

[Dehya]

Im pretty sure the primary reason this game gets flak is it more or less totally throws Tolkien's canon and themes of his books out the window. For example, if I remember right, one person's analysis on this game that I read explained that part of this games problems was that unlike Tolkien's work which implied you cannot subvert death without major consequences, in these games you can do so without any real consequence whatsoever.

Personally I don't really think these games should be bound by adhering to Tolkien's canon. Considering how, if I understand it right, alot of people don't consider anything outside Tolkien's original works and the Silmarillion canon anyways, criticising this game for not adhering seems a bit ridiculous since as it would fall under the definition of not canon anyways, so who really cares, right? If its outside canon, none of it really matters.

Provided it remains consistent within its own little seperate canon of these two games, (which it kinda fails at in my opinion with the Blade of Galadriel DLC) I don't see much issue with it. If it had been forced to adhere rigirously to Tolkien's canon, we probably wouldn't have got the games we got, which, if you look at seperately from the books are pretty damn awesome.

Especially with the Nemesis System letting you forge your own little personal stories with Uruks in Mordor. And its overall primary story is relatively interesting, even if its initial set-up what with the dead family members for motivation is incredibly generic and outstandingly unoriginal at this point. (Can the game industry really not come up with a new plot device at this point for some of its protagonists? Is that too much to ask?)

That's all just my two cents though. At the end of the day, its going to be held up against Tolkien's works regardless, and thus, some people will choose to disregard it, or even straight up hate it because it doesn't really follow any of what Tolkien wrote. That is the way of Mordor the internet.

Oh, one more thing. Whilst the movies are fine Im sure (I don't actually know, I haven't seen them myself yet lol,) and if these games got you into watching them, that's cool, but you probably shouldn't compare the games to the movies. Whilst as I understand it, Peter Jackson did try to be faithful to the books, the movies didn't get it all right either. So keep that in mind. Just sayin.

[Mordranon]

I cant answer for everyone, but with some spoilers, I will make an attempt to summarize.

Some of us just strongly dislike specific features and elements of the story. Most of the topics and comments I read acknowledge that the game is actually extremely fun to play, with an interesting story, and promising end game features that really add extra life to the game if you are still interested WHEN you get there. It breaks down pretty quickly once you get to Act 3. For whatever reason, for better or worse, the game stretches out its least interesting aspects and scales its rewards into game modes that dont require active play or engage with the plot far too often for many people.

Its characters and storyline break down way too easily even with a surface level knowledge of the lore. Dont believe me? After Celebrimbor comes to the conclusion that Talion is not manipulated easily enough to be suitable and joins with Eltariel they leave him still bleeding and dying, laying on the ground, and also conveniently leave behind the extremely powerful ring of the Nazgul in reach so that Talion can stay in the plot. That also has absolutely nothing to do with hope or nostalgia, even though it was both evil and moronic. Neither of them would leave the ring there in the reality of this story.

Fine. I understand why that happened. Its just that it breaks down the whole entire structure of the ending, undermines the competence of the characters, and it just gets worse by the end of the DLC. If anything its not that they fail to meet the standard "they're about hope and nostalgia"
but instead that the person writing this story lacks the self discernment to realize they have abandoned the timeless themes and elements that give the franchise, book, game, or whatever its strength, and instead of just creating a new setting with a new backstory and characters and lore for people to enjoy the result can feel like a broken promise. Thats why.

[Derrame]

I'm a LOTR fan and I don't hate it, I love it!

[Mordranon]

Also, hate and anger are not the opposite of love. Apathy is the opposite of love. That is the dark.

[Ambugaton]

Yeah, I love LOTR, have read the books multiple times, including the Simarillion. I still love the game, because for me I always saw it as capitalizing on the popularity of the movies rather than an extension or exploration of Tolkien's vision. Seeing it that way, it's about how the game stands up on its own, not how it stands when compared to tolkien's world. Played on those terms the game does great.

There are problems with *internal* consistency of the stroy line, which Caligulas points out, but storyline has always been secondary to me in most gameplay, so I'm not the audience likely to be put off by these typoes of issues.

As far as how it changes after act III, that's actually where the game gets longevity to me. It's almost a second game. It's not about a limited story line, it's about Talion maintaining his forces, orc betrayals, etc.

[Smile]

Originally posted by Thane_Mantis:

Im pretty sure the primary reason this game gets flak is it more or less totally throws Tolkien's canon and themes of his books out the window. For example, if I remember right, one person's analysis on this game that I read explained that part of this games problems was that unlike Tolkien's work which implied you cannot subvert death without major consequences, in these games you can do so without any real consequence whatsoever.

Personally I don't really think these games should be bound by adhering to Tolkien's canon. Considering how, if I understand it right, alot of people don't consider anything outside Tolkien's original works and the Silmarillion canon anyways, criticising this game for not adhering seems a bit ridiculous since as it would fall under the definition of not canon anyways, so who really cares, right? If its outside canon, none of it really matters.

Provided it remains consistent within its own little seperate canon of these two games, (which it kinda fails at in my opinion with the Blade of Galadriel DLC) I don't see much issue with it. If it had been forced to adhere rigirously to Tolkien's canon, we probably wouldn't have got the games we got, which, if you look at seperately from the books are pretty damn awesome.

Especially with the Nemesis System letting you forge your own little personal stories with Uruks in Mordor. And its overall primary story is relatively interesting, even if its initial set-up what with the dead family members for motivation is incredibly generic and outstandingly unoriginal at this point. (Can the game industry really not come up with a new plot device at this point for some of its protagonists? Is that too much to ask?)

That's all just my two cents though. At the end of the day, its going to be held up against Tolkien's works regardless, and thus, some people will choose to disregard it, or even straight up hate it because it doesn't really follow any of what Tolkien wrote. That is the way of Mordor the internet.

Oh, one more thing. Whilst the movies are fine Im sure (I don't actually know, I haven't seen them myself yet lol,) and if these games got you into watching them, that's cool, but you probably shouldn't compare the games to the movies. Whilst as I understand it, Peter Jackson did try to be faithful to the books, the movies didn't get it all right either. So keep that in mind. Just sayin.

could not agree more. when making a spin off, if you try too hard to stay true to the core cannon and theme (when it's so detailed) you can't make an engaging story. look at shadow of mordor. it didn't do much in terms of lore. and that's the game the tolkien fans respect more. (see?)
i think this should be looked at an else world story rather than something trying to change or piggy back on tolkien's lore. i think this game does a good job of being entertaining and engaging, and believable. (somewhat) it's something like Rogue One, it's completely different in terms of theme and asthetic. but it's still enjoyable

[Smile]

Originally posted by Caligulas:

I cant answer for everyone, but with some spoilers, I will make an attempt to summarize.

Some of us just strongly dislike specific features and elements of the story. Most of the topics and comments I read acknowledge that the game is actually extremely fun to play, with an interesting story, and promising end game features that really add extra life to the game if you are still interested WHEN you get there. It breaks down pretty quickly once you get to Act 3. For whatever reason, for better or worse, the game stretches out its least interesting aspects and scales its rewards into game modes that dont require active play or engage with the plot far too often for many people.

Its characters and storyline break down way too easily even with a surface level knowledge of the lore. Dont believe me? After Celebrimbor comes to the conclusion that Talion is not manipulated easily enough to be suitable and joins with Eltariel they leave him still bleeding and dying, laying on the ground, and also conveniently leave behind the extremely powerful ring of the Nazgul in reach so that Talion can stay in the plot. That also has absolutely nothing to do with hope or nostalgia, even though it was both evil and moronic. Neither of them would leave the ring there in the reality of this story.

Fine. I understand why that happened. Its just that it breaks down the whole entire structure of the ending, undermines the competence of the characters, and it just gets worse by the end of the DLC. If anything its not that they fail to meet the standard "they're about hope and nostalgia"
but instead that the person writing this story lacks the self discernment to realize they have abandoned the timeless themes and elements that give the franchise, book, game, or whatever its strength, and instead of just creating a new setting with a new backstory and characters and lore for people to enjoy the result can feel like a broken promise. Thats why.

to be honest act 3 was my least favorite part of this game. it was really badly representing celebrimbor's personality, not just compared to the silmarillion, but also compared to the first game, sure he was more mathotical, and cold hearted when it came to strategy and decision making, but he still had a some-what compassion and it seemed like he truly cared about the fate of mordor, in the dlc it showed him in his worst estate, with his family captured and his armies falling, and finally beaten to death. so it was still reasonable for him to be that angry. but then act 3 happened..

[Smile]

Originally posted by DerrameN:

I'm a LOTR fan and I don't hate it, I love it!

i see.

[TarPalantir24]

Because it is a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ adaptation of the books, gets nearly everxthing wrong and the developers still claim that their super fans and experts on the subject, and that the games remain faithful to the lore to the point of fact checking everything.

[The Infinite Archiver]

Books to Movies and games do not mix well, here's a whole thing on it:

From Star Wars, Harry Potter, Lord of The Rings, compare the Books to the Movies and Films, notice how the Movies, Games AND Films are for a DIFFERENT audience of people who want to watch a story unfold in dramatic battles, also note, unlike Books, you can make more depth and detail with Games or Films because it's all more tangible and able to be explored more deeper than a book, which can only describe to you, while a Game/Film can open itself to you even more.


Now look at books: For audiences who enjoy the silence of reading, the conceptual lore and pondering questions of reality itself are often portrayed in the author's mindset through books, WAY different to how Movies, Films or Games often do it.


This gap to HOW Films and Games are THIS different to Books is the prime reason why it doesn't go so well - The real question is not, "why Tolkein Fans hate the Game/Movie adaptations" - but the REAL QUESTION is..

"why can't Literature Fans get over difficult choices that MUST be made on a Game or Film based on a Book in order to make it suitable for the Game/Film audience?"

Simply put - Literature Fans will criticise Game/Film adaptations of their favourite books because often, Games and Films have THEIR OWN audiences, and these Literature Fans in their fanatical obsession will try to undermine this because they're not the main target audience more than they actually are.

Funny thing is - when a Game/Film is converted to a BOOK, most Games/Films Audiences won't complain, and not even the Literature Audience at most of times, but when a BOOK is turned into a Game/Film adaptation, then for some reason the Literature Audiences loses their minds and gets angry for no real reason...

[TarPalantir24]

Originally posted by Colonel Autumn:

Books to Movies and games do not mix well, here's a whole thing on it:

From Star Wars, Harry Potter, Lord of The Rings, compare the Books to the Movies and Films, notice how the Movies, Games AND Films are for a DIFFERENT audience of people who want to watch a story unfold in dramatic battles, also note, unlike Books, you can make more depth and detail with Games or Films because it's all more tangible and able to be explored more deeper than a book, which can only describe to you, while a Game/Film can open itself to you even more.


Now look at books: For audiences who enjoy the silence of reading, the conceptual lore and pondering questions of reality itself are often portrayed in the author's mindset through books, when you READ someone else's writing, you can litterally SEE what they are thinking and HOW they thinkg. WAY different to how Movies, Films or Games often do it.


This gap to HOW Films and Games are THIS different to Books is the prime reason why it doesn't go so well - The real question is not, "why Tolkein Fans hate the Game/Movie adaptations" - but the REAL QUESTION is..

"why can't Literature Fans get over difficult choices that MUST be made on a Game or Film based on a Book in order to make it suitable for the Game/Film audience?"

Simply put - Literature Fans will criticise Game/Film adaptations of their favourite books because often, Games and Films have THEIR OWN audiences, and these Literature Fans in their fanatical obsession will try to undermine this because they're not the main target audience more than they actually are.


Here is an example of Literature Fanatacism opposing Games/Films that uses a Literature piece and prioritises it for the Game/Film Audience than the Literature Audience.

Originally posted by TarPalantir24:

Because it is a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ adaptation of the books, gets nearly everxthing wrong and the developers still claim that their super fans and experts on the subject, and that the games remain faithful to the lore to the point of fact checking everything.

Funny thing is - when a Game/Film is converted to a BOOK, most Games/Films Audiences won't complain, and not even the Literature Audience at most of times, but when a BOOK is turned into a Game/Film adaptation, then for some reason the Literature Audiences loses their minds and gets angry for no real reason...

Please tell me which of the story-decissions made in SoM/SoW was necessitated by the change in medium. Book fans usually complain about unnecessary changes tro the source material and/or changes that outright disrespect it.

[TarPalantir24]

Originally posted by Colonel Autumn:

snip

1.) There was no need to have the gamn be set between the Hobbit and Lotr. There was alos no need for the game to feature the fall of the Black Gate and of Minas Ithil in the first place. The developers could have either set the game in the right timeline or could have changed the games' story in such a way that it fits between the Hobbit and Lotr.

2.) Well if the very premise of your story is incompatible with the universe you want that story to be set in, maybe you should think about reworking said premise so that it fits. The nemesis system would need alterations, but could still be included in some shape or form. And if you can not find a way to place the system within the established lore, either use another fictional universe or throw out the system entirely.

3.) The orcs in SoM/SoW have neither culture (or atleast none that goes beyond a ridiculous fixation on violende, nor character, the have quirks. With the books I got the impression that orcs, while being Sauron's/Morgoth's servants, were also their victims, being mostly forced agianst their will, but in the games the just sem to be naturally evil and violent.

All in all you have given no real reasons beyond "that is what the developers wanted to do" for the changes made by the games.

[TarPalantir24]

Originally posted by Colonel Autumn:

Originally posted by TarPalantir24:

All in all you have given no real reasons beyond "that is what the developers wanted to do" for the changes made by the games.

I asked you which of the changes were necessary for the adapatation into the video game format and you gave reasons which amounted to "because they wanted to do that". There was no reason why the games had to take place when they did or why they had to feature the characters and events that they did. Monolith just decided not to care about potential issues the games would have with the lore when decided to make the games the way that they did.

Originally posted by Colonel Autumn:

Now you're just bashing me because In your mind, I tried to explain my take on why something had to be explained because it goes against the literal time-factors of a story itself - EXPLAIN to me why my explanations ARE irrelevant and false to YOU, please explain to me why, otherwise you're just being a Fanatacist.


Now let me put this bluntly - If Monolith HAD to make the ENTIRE game canon, we would of got ANOTHER boring Game-Version of the Lord of The Rings/The Hobbit Story, in which case it's pointless because it'd be the same as the Books themselves - do you REALLY want that? In which case you'd be better off just reading the Books.

Well first even if the game was canon compatible, it would still be non-canon since it is not made by Tolkien. However it could have been (mostly) canon compatible and not be a retelling of the books events. You can tell an original story set in Middle-earth without rehashingf the books and have it mostly fit within the uinverse.

Originally posted by Colonel Autumn:

[

ALSO, might I add, you're litterally using the deceased author you like so much as an excuse to go against creativity that Tolkein himself loved to use, he even had inspiration from his own personal experiences, from the Wars to his daily life - you really think that's what Tolkein would want his fans to do? "Of course", he would, you're alive and he's a corpse but you know what's best for a corpse, right?

Nowhere in my comments did I speculate on whether or not Tolkien would have liked or approved of the games.