Jason Todd clues

[Jay Bird]

I'm curious to how much clues there are in Batman Arkham Asylum to Jason being alive, could you guys contribute to this discussion?

[gps]

I don't know. Are there any at all? I can't remember Jason being a thing in Asylum (or City btw.) at all. Beyond stuff that's actually retconned in later - and that questionable "J. Peter" (as a nurse!!! - why would he be a nurse?) reference.

[LHGreen]

In the game itself, none, as far as I know. You're giving these guys WAY too much credit. They're not that smart. If you want stuff like that, you should watch Chris Nolan films, instead. I don't mean only the Batman films, I mean just his films, in general.

[Jay Bird]

Originally posted by gps:

I don't know. Are there any at all? I can't remember Jason being a thing in Asylum (or City btw.) at all. Beyond stuff that's actually retconned in later - and that questionable "J. Peter" (as a nurse!!! - why would he be a nurse?) reference.

I never saw that until yesterday but that doesn't make any sense at all, why would Joker put him as a nurse or even get him being consulted by Hush who already is consulting other Batman enemies like the Mad Hatter (which doesn't make any ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ sense at all since he is a plastic surgeon not a psychologist)

[Jay Bird]

Originally posted by LHGreen:

In the game itself, none, as far as I know. You're giving these guys WAY too much credit. They're not that smart. If you want stuff like that, you should watch Chris Nolan films, instead. I don't mean only the Batman films, I mean just his films, in general.

Well just remember that it wasn't any of rocksteady employees who wrote the scrypt, it was Paul Dini one of the best writers in the whole Batman story.
And also you should give Rocksteady more credit since they bought a lot of comic books and the whole team read it.
And i don't get what you tried to say about the Nolan movies

[Jay Bird]

Originally posted by gps:

I don't know. Are there any at all? I can't remember Jason being a thing in Asylum (or City btw.) at all. Beyond stuff that's actually retconned in later - and that questionable "J. Peter" (as a nurse!!! - why would he be a nurse?) reference.

There actually are a lot of references but people didn't get most of them.

In Asylum there are 2 lines that Joker says that talk about A Robin.
One of them is when you finally found the comissioner with Harley and Joker says that if you get to Harley without alarming anyone he will give you the comissioner and he might as well give you Harley since it looks like you need a new sidecick (meaning that Joker has already got to Jason is just teasing Batman since he doesn't know where Jason is);
Another dialog is one that you can totally miss if you don't visit the Joker in that place where you will have a final fight (which by the way the dialogs with him are just GREAT) Joker asks if you punish your help like he does to Harley or if that lousy outfit is already enough of a punishment.

Going to Arkham City now we know that the Robin is Tim Drake but if you play the challenge map of the Joker's Park's with Tim you might get a dialog of Joker asking himself if he hasn't killed you before.

And since we know the timeline thanks to Arkham Knight we know that Jason was captured before the Asylum and that Bruce made Tim replace him before Arkham City

I always heard that the original plan of Paul Dini's writing was to be Hush and Scarecrow the final villans and that they suddenly changed that to Red Hood without ever mencioning him before but that couldn't be more far from the true, maybe Paul Dini put it in the 2 first games like a clue or just an easter egg we don't know.

[gps]

Originally posted by Jay Bird:

In Asylum there are 2 lines that Joker says that talk about A Robin.
One of them is when you finally found the comissioner with Harley and Joker says that if you get to Harley without alarming anyone he will give you the comissioner and he might as well give you Harley since it looks like you need a new sidecick (meaning that Joker has already got to Jason is just teasing Batman since he doesn't know where Jason is);
Another dialog is one that you can totally miss if you don't visit the Joker in that place where you will have a final fight (which by the way the dialogs with him are just GREAT) Joker asks if you punish your help like he does to Harley or if that lousy outfit is already enough of a punishment.

The first quote could also refer to Grayson leaving for the Teen Titans (1982), with Jason becoming Robin in 1983. Always asuming that timelines in the games match the comics. They could be totally different...
Or it could also just mean Joker thinks the current Robin is an idiot.
And the second quote refers to the costume colours. It say nothing whatsover about who wears them or if the dude is alive or missing or whatever at the moment. Actually if you punish your help, it implies the help is still around at the moment to be punished.
I would not recommend loosing sleep over stuff like that. ;)

[Jay Bird]

Originally posted by gps:

Originally posted by Jay Bird:

In Asylum there are 2 lines that Joker says that talk about A Robin.
One of them is when you finally found the comissioner with Harley and Joker says that if you get to Harley without alarming anyone he will give you the comissioner and he might as well give you Harley since it looks like you need a new sidecick (meaning that Joker has already got to Jason is just teasing Batman since he doesn't know where Jason is);
Another dialog is one that you can totally miss if you don't visit the Joker in that place where you will have a final fight (which by the way the dialogs with him are just GREAT) Joker asks if you punish your help like he does to Harley or if that lousy outfit is already enough of a punishment.

The first quote could also refer to Grayson leaving for the Teen Titans (1982), with Jason becoming Robin in 1983. Always asuming that timelines in the games match the comics. They could be totally different...
Or it could also just mean Joker thinks the current Robin is an idiot.
And the second quote refers to the costume colours. It say nothing whatsover about who wears them or if the dude is alive or missing or whatever at the moment. Actually if you punish your help, it implies the help is still around at the moment to be punished.
I would not recommend loosing sleep over stuff like that. ;)

I will respond to you later because i want to play some more but what is the time span between Asylum and City?

[LHGreen]

Originally posted by Jay Bird:

Well just remember that it wasn't any of rocksteady employees who wrote the scrypt, it was Paul Dini one of the best writers in the whole Batman story.

Formerly one of the best. I was sad to discover when I played this game that he'd started to slip. Or hell, maybe he just never wrote for a video game before and didn't know how. Either way, the results are not quite up to the quality of his early work on the 90's animated series.

Originally posted by Jay Bird:

And also you should give Rocksteady more credit since they bought a lot of comic books and the whole team read it.

Really? Well so have I. Guess that means I'm as qualified to write it as they are, huh?

Hell, I might actually be more qualified than some of them, going by some of what I saw.

Originally posted by Jay Bird:

And i don't get what you tried to say about the Nolan movies

Because he LOVES foreshadowing. Like, a LOT. He loves telling you what he's gonna do, in a way that you're meant to not even realize he's doing until he finishes doing it.

Originally posted by Jay Bird:

There actually are a lot of references but people didn't get most of them.

In Asylum there are 2 lines that Joker says that talk about A Robin.
One of them is when you finally found the comissioner with Harley and Joker says that if you get to Harley without alarming anyone he will give you the comissioner and he might as well give you Harley since it looks like you need a new sidecick (meaning that Joker has already got to Jason is just teasing Batman since he doesn't know where Jason is);
Another dialog is one that you can totally miss if you don't visit the Joker in that place where you will have a final fight (which by the way the dialogs with him are just GREAT) Joker asks if you punish your help like he does to Harley or if that lousy outfit is already enough of a punishment.

Those don't necessarily refer to Jason Todd specifically, though. There's other explanations.

Originally posted by Jay Bird:

Going to Arkham City now we know that the Robin is Tim Drake but if you play the challenge map of the Joker's Park's with Tim you might get a dialog of Joker asking himself if he hasn't killed you before.

That actually is a direct reference. I'd call it a good catch, but I'd have noticed it myself if I ever played the challenge maps with Robin, which so far I haven't done. Still, didn't Robin get added to the challenge maps along with the dlc? That only started to get made after the main game was finished, and I think was still being made when the main game released. So of course they had a better idea of what they were gonna do in Knight, by that point. Still didn't completely know how they were gonna do everything, of course, so they may have simply been planning to address the Jason Todd situation without knowing how they were actually gonna go about it, i.e. in the laziest, most disappointing, and most obvious letdown of a twist possible, that they completely spoiled anyway with Knight's day 1 dlc. IIRC, that was a pre-order bonus, originally, wasn't it? With no warning that it's set AFTER Knight.

Originally posted by Jay Bird:

I always heard that the original plan of Paul Dini's writing was to be Hush and Scarecrow the final villans and that they suddenly changed that to Red Hood without ever mencioning him before but that couldn't be more far from the true, maybe Paul Dini put it in the 2 first games like a clue or just an easter egg we don't know.

No, I think it's a pretty safe bet that what you heard was the case. It would explain why they made such a big deal with Hush in City only to have the most anti-climactic resolution to it in Knight that would have been possible while still technically counting as a resolution. The only way it could have been worse or more disappointing would have been to have the Hush thing dealt with off-screen, but then it wouldn't really be a resolution. Also, Dini was only involved with Asylum, wasn't he? I don't know if he even worked on City.

So yeah, I stand by what I said. You're giving everyone involved in this way too much credit.

[Jay Bird]

Originally posted by gps:

Originally posted by Jay Bird:

In Asylum there are 2 lines that Joker says that talk about A Robin.
One of them is when you finally found the comissioner with Harley and Joker says that if you get to Harley without alarming anyone he will give you the comissioner and he might as well give you Harley since it looks like you need a new sidecick (meaning that Joker has already got to Jason is just teasing Batman since he doesn't know where Jason is);
Another dialog is one that you can totally miss if you don't visit the Joker in that place where you will have a final fight (which by the way the dialogs with him are just GREAT) Joker asks if you punish your help like he does to Harley or if that lousy outfit is already enough of a punishment.

The first quote could also refer to Grayson leaving for the Teen Titans (1982), with Jason becoming Robin in 1983. Always asuming that timelines in the games match the comics. They could be totally different...
Or it could also just mean Joker thinks the current Robin is an idiot.
And the second quote refers to the costume colours. It say nothing whatsover about who wears them or if the dude is alive or missing or whatever at the moment. Actually if you punish your help, it implies the help is still around at the moment to be punished.
I would not recommend loosing sleep over stuff like that. ;)

We would need more information about ♥♥♥♥ in the Arkham universe to know when Bruce decided to replace him but it was definitely before Asylum, and the thing about Bruce punishing his sidekicks, Joker could be talking abou Jason as in teasing him not impling that he's still around (like Joker in the Under the Red Hood movie where he teases Bruce and ♥♥♥♥ that Nightwing has grown up and that he was better than the new one) or he could be also talking about Barbara, sure Joker doesn't know she works for him but there are cameras in the whole island so some of them must have captured Bruce talking with her.

[Jay Bird]

Originally posted by LHGreen:

Originally posted by Jay Bird:

Well just remember that it wasn't any of rocksteady employees who wrote the scrypt, it was Paul Dini one of the best writers in the whole Batman story.

Formerly one of the best. I was sad to discover when I played this game that he'd started to slip. Or hell, maybe he just never wrote for a video game before and didn't know how. Either way, the results are not quite up to the quality of his early work on the 90's animated series.

Originally posted by Jay Bird:

And also you should give Rocksteady more credit since they bought a lot of comic books and the whole team read it.

Really? Well so have I. Guess that means I'm as qualified to write it as they are, huh?:conwayfacepalm:

Hell, I might actually be more qualified than some of them, going by some of what I saw.:conwayshrug:

Originally posted by Jay Bird:

And i don't get what you tried to say about the Nolan movies

Because he LOVES foreshadowing. Like, a LOT. He loves telling you what he's gonna do, in a way that you're meant to not even realize he's doing until he finishes doing it.

Originally posted by Jay Bird:

There actually are a lot of references but people didn't get most of them.

In Asylum there are 2 lines that Joker says that talk about A Robin.
One of them is when you finally found the comissioner with Harley and Joker says that if you get to Harley without alarming anyone he will give you the comissioner and he might as well give you Harley since it looks like you need a new sidecick (meaning that Joker has already got to Jason is just teasing Batman since he doesn't know where Jason is);
Another dialog is one that you can totally miss if you don't visit the Joker in that place where you will have a final fight (which by the way the dialogs with him are just GREAT) Joker asks if you punish your help like he does to Harley or if that lousy outfit is already enough of a punishment.

Those don't necessarily refer to Jason Todd specifically, though. There's other explanations.

Originally posted by Jay Bird:

Going to Arkham City now we know that the Robin is Tim Drake but if you play the challenge map of the Joker's Park's with Tim you might get a dialog of Joker asking himself if he hasn't killed you before.

That actually is a direct reference. I'd call it a good catch, but I'd have noticed it myself if I ever played the challenge maps with Robin, which so far I haven't done. Still, didn't Robin get added to the challenge maps along with the dlc? That only started to get made after the main game was finished, and I think was still being made when the main game released. So of course they had a better idea of what they were gonna do in Knight, by that point. Still didn't completely know how they were gonna do everything, of course, so they may have simply been planning to address the Jason Todd situation without knowing how they were actually gonna go about it, i.e. in the laziest, most disappointing, and most obvious letdown of a twist possible, that they completely spoiled anyway with Knight's day 1 dlc. IIRC, that was a pre-order bonus, originally, wasn't it? With no warning that it's set AFTER Knight.

Originally posted by Jay Bird:

I always heard that the original plan of Paul Dini's writing was to be Hush and Scarecrow the final villans and that they suddenly changed that to Red Hood without ever mencioning him before but that couldn't be more far from the true, maybe Paul Dini put it in the 2 first games like a clue or just an easter egg we don't know.

No, I think it's a pretty safe bet that what you heard was the case. It would explain why they made such a big deal with Hush in City only to have the most anti-climactic resolution to it in Knight that would have been possible while still technically counting as a resolution. The only way it could have been worse or more disappointing would have been to have the Hush thing dealt with off-screen, but then it wouldn't really be a resolution. Also, Dini was only involved with Asylum, wasn't he? I don't know if he even worked on City.

So yeah, I stand by what I said. You're giving everyone involved in this way too much credit.

Man, Paul Dini is one of the BEST writers that worked with Batman even to this day my dude of course the Arkham franchise is slightly less well writen thatn the Animated Batman but because that it would be impossible to top that.
You would need a writer like Alan Moore to do something better than Cold Cold Heart, Nothing to Fear, Joker's Favor, Two Face (1 and 2), Almost Got Him, Grey Ghost and so many other's and portray that to a videogame is twice as hard they did it well with Cold Cold Heart but because they didn't change mostly nothing.

Well the writer in the silver and bronze age of the superhero comic books were the kids that had grown up reading the stuff and decided they could do it much better than the guys that were there from the start and well they did it.

And well we wouldn't get games like inFamous if it weren't for the devs to be huge comic book nerds and liking Batman No Man's Land and ZDM.

And about you being able to write better than the writers and dev's in Rocksteady, sure knock yourself out and i don't doubt it a single bit since they made that Suicide Squad crap.

About the foreshadowing i don't remember having it that much in the franchise, we do have it in City about the final moments in the game and in Knight about Jason being alive and the Arkham Knight.

And feel free to explain what was the reference that Joker was doing.

Joker's line changes every moment you start the challenge maybe you've missed it, and well Robin did come out later as a DLC but it was probably sooner than Nightwing since he was in the main game.
And somehow this Jason Todd stuff always came to me like Venom in the third movie were Raimi didn't want him but ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Avi Arad did so he forced him, maybe it was the same stuff here where Jason was just supposed to be mentioned but never got shown up or he would be a character for another game.

Don't forget that Azrael also got forgotten in Arkham Knight after all the build up they did in City.

And yeah Paul Dini wrote the 2 games but he had a little help form one of the guys in Rocksteady with City and the information always changes when it come to Knight some say it was supposed to be Hush and Scarecrow as the main villains or it was supposed to be Hush and Jason as the main villain and Scarecrow being a side quest or something, maybe even a DLC like Harley's Revenge.
But honestly i like the story in Arkham Knight except for the Jason part's (the only good parts about it is the interrogation scenes with Joker) what they did with Scarecrow was amazing, but Jason nah i don't know what is worse the Titans show or AK.

And i'll always give too much credit to the Arkham franchise since it is my favorite gaming franchise

[Jay Bird]

Also it would be pretty amazing if Rocksteady or WB made a Red Hood game with the Arkham fighting and stealth system but also did it like the Punisher game.

[Jay Bird]

I also forgot to add that maybe that wasn't Paul Dini first time writing games, there was that Batman Animated game, Batman Vengeance which was amazing when it came out and i'm pretty sure he was the writer.

[∆̷2̷∂̷∑̷R̷∞̷֎∦]

Study Royal history and figure out your playing with a hate crime, just because your a fan does not mean you can decode the stories, of the true hidden context.

The game was made by violating human rights and exploitation.

[Jay Bird]

Originally posted by ∆̷2̷∂̷∑̷R̷∞̷֎∦:

Study Royal history and figure out your playing with a hate crime, just because your a fan does not mean you can decode the stores of the true hidden context.

The game was made by violating human rights and exploitation.

Dude, WHAT?

[∆̷2̷∂̷∑̷R̷∞̷֎∦]

Originally posted by Jay Bird:

Originally posted by ∆̷2̷∂̷∑̷R̷∞̷֎∦:

Study Royal history and figure out your playing with a hate crime, just because your a fan does not mean you can decode the stores of the true hidden context.

The game was made by violating human rights and exploitation.

Dude, WHAT?

So did you find me in the game, I have a Riddle for you.