DENUVO and MALWARE. Not for the players

[SmileX]

Here is what ChatGPT says:

"Denuvo and malware have several things in common from a technical perspective:

1. Low-level system access
Both operate at the kernel level (Ring-0), using drivers and rootkit-like techniques. This allows them to intercept system calls, protect themselves from debugging, and in some cases, hide their presence.

2. Code obfuscation and encryption
To prevent reverse engineering, both Denuvo and many types of malware use packers, encrypt their code, and implement anti-debugging tricks.

3. Constant updates/modifications
Denuvo developers frequently release new versions to counteract cracks, just as malware authors constantly update their code to evade antivirus signatures and detection heuristics.

4. Potential conflicts with security software
Because of their low-level drivers and unusual behavior patterns, antivirus programs sometimes flag Denuvo as potentially unwanted software or even malware.

5. Impact on performance
Both can negatively affect system performance: Denuvo due to frequent integrity checks and encryption/decryption operations, and malware through background activity, mining, or hidden network communication.

So, while their goals are fundamentally different (Denuvo aims to prevent piracy, while malware is meant to harm or exploit), they often rely on similar methods for injecting themselves into systems, hiding, and protecting their code."

Considering all the above, I see no justifiable reason to install something that borders on malware. It's truly sad when a publisher resorts to such anti-consumer tactics for their own gain. Sony, this is absolutely not for the players!

[Pyro3000]

You could say the same thing about a lot of software from a "technical perspective."

[Aeth]

I just realized that I'm going to get a refund and find another way...

[Eera]

Just so it's clear that I'm not someone who is "upset you are attacking Denuvo", let me say I don't like Denuvo and put Stellar Blade entirely out of my mind when I saw it was using it.
With that said, please do not use ChatGPT or ANY AI as a "trusted source" for information.
LLM/AIs are well known for giving completely made up fabricated responses (called hallucinations).
Google, "Big Data" itself, says as much - https://cloud.google.com/discover/what-are-ai-hallucinations

When Wikipedia was getting popular back in the day it was common to be told by professors not to use it as a source for your studies, the reason for this is that people would go to Wikipedia and copy paste the entire thing without looking into anything further. You have cited sources on the page for specific claims or events, you need to go looking for those "offsite" sources to verify the information is correct and from a reputable source, not simply believe it because it was on one website.
This is the same approach we should take to anything coming from an AI, whether it supports your argument or not.

[The Everlasting Stillness ☯]

Denuvo is pus-filled anal warts, but so is chatgpt.

[Aeth]

Originally posted by The Everlasting Stillness ☯:

Denuvo is pus-filled anal warts, but so is chatgpt.

it remains no less real on the subject of denuvo

[SmileX]

Originally posted by Eera:

Just so it's clear that I'm not someone who is "upset you are attacking Denuvo", let me say I don't like Denuvo and put Stellar Blade entirely out of my mind when I saw it was using it.
With that said, please do not use ChatGPT or ANY AI as a "trusted source" for information.
LLM/AIs are well known for giving completely made up fabricated responses (called hallucinations).
Google, "Big Data" itself, says as much - https://cloud.google.com/discover/what-are-ai-hallucinations

When Wikipedia was getting popular back in the day it was common to be told by professors not to use it as a source for your studies, the reason for this is that people would go to Wikipedia and copy paste the entire thing without looking into anything further. You have cited sources on the page for specific claims or events, you need to go looking for those "offsite" sources to verify the information is correct and from a reputable source, not simply believe it because it was on one website.
This is the same approach we should take to anything coming from an AI, whether it supports your argument or not.

Of course, LLMs still aren't perfect and it's important to verify what they say. But in this particular case it’s pointing out rather obvious things and I can't really disagree

[HiRed_ThuG]

Originally posted by SmileX:

Here is what ChatGPT says:

"Denuvo and malware have several things in common from a technical perspective:

1. Low-level system access
Both operate at the kernel level (Ring-0), using drivers and rootkit-like techniques. This allows them to intercept system calls, protect themselves from debugging, and in some cases, hide their presence.

2. Code obfuscation and encryption
To prevent reverse engineering, both Denuvo and many types of malware use packers, encrypt their code, and implement anti-debugging tricks.

3. Constant updates/modifications
Denuvo developers frequently release new versions to counteract cracks, just as malware authors constantly update their code to evade antivirus signatures and detection heuristics.

4. Potential conflicts with security software
Because of their low-level drivers and unusual behavior patterns, antivirus programs sometimes flag Denuvo as potentially unwanted software or even malware.

5. Impact on performance
Both can negatively affect system performance: Denuvo due to frequent integrity checks and encryption/decryption operations, and malware through background activity, mining, or hidden network communication.

So, while their goals are fundamentally different (Denuvo aims to prevent piracy, while malware is meant to harm or exploit), they often rely on similar methods for injecting themselves into systems, hiding, and protecting their code."

Considering all the above, I see no justifiable reason to install something that borders on malware. It's truly sad when a publisher resorts to such anti-consumer tactics for their own gain. Sony, this is absolutely not for the players!

It seems as if you directed Chat GPT to say what you wanted it to.

Denuvo anti tamper doesn't have kernel level access as it has the same access as the game exe file because that's where it's embedded.

The same Chat GPT when it's not influenced to lie.

No, Denuvo Anti-Tamper does not have kernel-level (ring 0) access.

Here's a breakdown:
Denuvo Anti-Tamper is primarily a user-mode software protection layer. It operates in ring 3 of the CPU privilege levels — the same level as most applications and games.

It is not a kernel-mode driver, meaning it does not load into or interact directly with the Windows kernel (ring 0). As such, it does not have access to core system functions or the ability to execute privileged instructions.

Clarification:
Kernel-level anti-cheat systems, like Vanguard (used in Valorant) or BattlEye's kernel drivers, do operate at ring 0, allowing deep system monitoring — but that’s different software, mostly for cheat detection.

Summary:
❌ No kernel (ring 0) access.

✅ Operates in user mode (ring 3).

✅ Focused on anti-tampering / DRM, not anti-cheat.

[Aeth]

Originally posted by HiRed_ThuG:

Originally posted by SmileX:

Here is what ChatGPT says:

"Denuvo and malware have several things in common from a technical perspective:

1. Low-level system access
Both operate at the kernel level (Ring-0), using drivers and rootkit-like techniques. This allows them to intercept system calls, protect themselves from debugging, and in some cases, hide their presence.

2. Code obfuscation and encryption
To prevent reverse engineering, both Denuvo and many types of malware use packers, encrypt their code, and implement anti-debugging tricks.

3. Constant updates/modifications
Denuvo developers frequently release new versions to counteract cracks, just as malware authors constantly update their code to evade antivirus signatures and detection heuristics.

4. Potential conflicts with security software
Because of their low-level drivers and unusual behavior patterns, antivirus programs sometimes flag Denuvo as potentially unwanted software or even malware.

5. Impact on performance
Both can negatively affect system performance: Denuvo due to frequent integrity checks and encryption/decryption operations, and malware through background activity, mining, or hidden network communication.

So, while their goals are fundamentally different (Denuvo aims to prevent piracy, while malware is meant to harm or exploit), they often rely on similar methods for injecting themselves into systems, hiding, and protecting their code."

Considering all the above, I see no justifiable reason to install something that borders on malware. It's truly sad when a publisher resorts to such anti-consumer tactics for their own gain. Sony, this is absolutely not for the players!

It seems as if you directed Chat GPT to say what you wanted it to.

Denuvo anti tamper doesn't have kernel level access as it has the same access as the game exe file because that's where it's embedded.

In all cases the reputation is well established by Denuvo, no benefit for the user, a very negative reputation, impact performance, and intrusive.

[HiRed_ThuG]

Originally posted by Aeth:

Originally posted by HiRed_ThuG:

It seems as if you directed Chat GPT to say what you wanted it to.

Denuvo anti tamper doesn't have kernel level access as it has the same access as the game exe file because that's where it's embedded.

In all cases the reputation is well established by Denuvo, no benefit for the user, a very negative reputation, impact performance, and intrusive.

A performance impact has never been established in none bottlenecked scenarios by any reputable source.

[srfrogg23]

Yeah, I don't think there's a lot of differences between cyber-security software and the malware it defends against. It's more of a question of "why" it is being used over "what" is it.

In this case, the "why" is entirely based on flawed logic: The belief that people who would have stolen the game will suddenly feel compelled to pay for the game instead of waiting a few months for the DRM to get cracked.

This is not true. They will not be more willing to buy the product. They will simply wait while the paying customers end up getting shafted with an inferior version of the product with offline restrictions.

[Aeth]

Originally posted by srfrogg23:

Yeah, I don't think there's a lot of differences between cyber-security software and the malware it defends against. It's more of a question of "why" it is being used over "what" is it.

In this case, the "why" is entirely based on flawed logic: The belief that people who would have stolen the game will suddenly feel compelled to pay for the game instead of waiting a few months for the DRM to get cracked.

This is not true. They will not be more willing to buy the product. They will simply wait while the paying customers end up getting shafted with an inferior version of the product with offline restrictions.

You anything, I bought the game, I got back, and I will ascend a few months too bad.

[Pheace]

Originally posted by srfrogg23:

Yeah, I don't think there's a lot of differences between cyber-security software and the malware it defends against. It's more of a question of "why" it is being used over "what" is it.

In this case, the "why" is entirely based on flawed logic: The belief that people who would have stolen the game will suddenly feel compelled to pay for the game instead of waiting a few months for the DRM to get cracked.

This is not true. They will not be more willing to buy the product. They will simply wait while the paying customers end up getting shafted with an inferior version of the product with offline restrictions.

This argument's pretty outdated by now.

There is no more 'wait a few months for crack' these days. It's literally been years since any new Denuvo game was cracked. The pirates alternative these days isn't superior, it's the exact same game as paying customers, with Denuvo included, just with added steps, limitations and annoyances.

[Aeth]

Originally posted by Pheace:

Originally posted by srfrogg23:

Yeah, I don't think there's a lot of differences between cyber-security software and the malware it defends against. It's more of a question of "why" it is being used over "what" is it.

In this case, the "why" is entirely based on flawed logic: The belief that people who would have stolen the game will suddenly feel compelled to pay for the game instead of waiting a few months for the DRM to get cracked.

This is not true. They will not be more willing to buy the product. They will simply wait while the paying customers end up getting shafted with an inferior version of the product with offline restrictions.

This argument's pretty outdated by now.

There is no more 'wait a few months for crack' these days. It's literally been years since any new Denuvo game was cracked. The pirates alternative these days isn't superior, it's the exact same game as paying customers, with Denuvo included, just with added steps, limitations and annoyances.

Yes, it still poses big problems and big questions...

[SmileX]

Originally posted by HiRed_ThuG:

Originally posted by Aeth:

In all cases the reputation is well established by Denuvo, no benefit for the user, a very negative reputation, impact performance, and intrusive.

A performance impact has never been established in none bottlenecked scenarios by any reputable source.

Thinking that Denuvo has no impact on performance is like claiming that additional layers of encryption, decryption, and virtualization techniques come with no computational cost - which simply doesn’t make sense

[HiRed_ThuG]

Originally posted by SmileX:

Originally posted by HiRed_ThuG:

A performance impact has never been established in none bottlenecked scenarios by any reputable source.

Thinking that Denuvo has no impact on performance is like claiming that additional layers of encryption, decryption, and virtualization techniques come with no computational cost - which simply doesn’t make sense

No, It's like knowing the difference between the CPU and a GPU when it comes to gaming. It also requires basic knowledge regarding how Denuvo actually works and how it's implemented.