This game is unplayable with a keyboard

[Yilku1]

Looks like the dev doesn't like people to criticize his game.

It is literally umplayable. Right at the start when you have to shoot diagonally you can't do it, you can only shoot up or right, if you press the 2 at the same time it doesn't aim diagonally

WASD is used in all platformer games. This is 2022, not 1995. Controls like this are unacceptable today.

He says has the same controls as Hollow Knight. Did you even play it? Hollow Knight uses WASD.

Use D to move right, A to move left, space to jump, cursor to aim and left click to shoot. Simple. This isn't 1995 where you can't use a mouse to aim

If you are going to copy Metroid at least copy all the improvements that have come from the last 30 years.

And don't get me started with ano key binding.

[twotimingpete]

In general, aiming isn't even a required part of the game. Interestingly, I mostly play the game on keyboard when testing, because I don't want to find the controller or wait for it to turn on -- because aim mode isn't required to get through the game.

Curiously, at times I've struggled with the question as to whether the aim mode feature should be tutorialized early on or not, because its existence implies that it's more important than it is, and it may lead people to play the game in the "wrong" way. In general, it's a tool that helps you become more efficient/precise as you master things, or get into a situation where precision aiming will make your life a little easier. Most common usage for me is just aiming slightly as an enemy approaches to hit their head instead of their body, which does a bit more damage. It also may be helpful to shoot at enemies that are flying or floating around, but, obviously, you can maneuver yourself and shoot to the side, or up, or diagonally, without aim mode, to hit them -- The same way you do in many platforming games. The same way you do in Mega Man, or Contra, or Super Metroid. Unless I'm forgetting something, I don't think using it is *ever* required to progress.

Of course, the recommended way to play the game is with a standard dual analog controller, and I've tried to communicate this clearly. Playing with a keyboard start to finish is possible (as I've done it) but a controller is the best experience.

Obviously it's a handy feature to allow the user to remap all buttons, but in my case it'd be a large and confusing task to implement, and other things are taking priority. I won't rule it out, but for now, it's not there.

I'm sorry you're not having a good experience with the controls. I've explained the reasons for things being how they are several times now in different threads, though. If a thread just devolves into people repeating themselves or being rude, then it's not productive.

[Siilk]

Originally posted by twotimingpete:

I'm sorry you're not having a good experience with the controls. I've explained the reasons for things being how they are several times now in different threads, though. If a thread just devolves into people repeating themselves or being rude, then it's not productive.

Maybe people are saying the same thing over and over because you keep brushing off valid concerns they have?

Keyboard control layout you came up with is objectively bad. Some keys are too far away from each other to comfortably hit them, like shoot and melee for example. Some just make no sense, like "use" being on Y even though most other active controls are grouped around Z. For a fast-paced game, things like that make it very uncomfortable to play.

The fact that you yourself got used to this layout after so many years does not mean this layout is any good. Not to mention that different people have their own definition of good layout, that's why key rebinding(yes, even for gamepad) exist in most games.

As for the aiming, OP is actually understating it. Given the game have full analogue aiming mode on gamepad means there's absolutely no excuse for not having mouse aiming. Even in first 5 minutes of demo I found plenty of situations where fixed angle aiming was extremely clumsy and not allowing me hit enemies comfortably if at all. I don't even think about how much worse it will get further ahead.

I understand that you may think current controls are fine as they are and that saying "just use controller" is enough, but it really isn't. It's a PC-only game, at least for now. So you have to understand that K+M is a highly preferable means to play for many PC gamers. Some are used to it more that any other control method, some argue it's more advanced and allow finer control and wider range of input, compared to gamepad, some may not have a gamepad to begin with.

So please, use the feedback players are giving to make the game better, not as a reason to become defensive about your design decisions. Everyone can have a vision which might not be as good as they think it is, that's why seeing other's perspective is important. Especially so, if you're making something you want others to appreciate and enjoy.

[Dark Moon Felis]

Originally posted by twotimingpete:

In general, aiming isn't even a required part of the game. Interestingly, I mostly play the game on keyboard when testing, because I don't want to find the controller or wait for it to turn on -- because aim mode isn't required to get through the game.

On that note, though: Aim mode is actively broken on keyboard - specifically because it doesn't seem to recognize diagonal inputs. I know it's not an issue with my keyboard, as it tests fine for N-key rollover, so it has to be an issue with the game.

[Correalian]

Couldn't play much of the demo as the controls are just that bad.

[TheOtherSteve]

please also consider implementing a key remapping option simply for the sake of accessibility. this also goes for gamepads and would allow people with limited finger dexterity or mobility to play as well. There's also the factor of simple familiarity, as some keyboard metrovania players simply have their preferred sets of controls from other games, such like Hollow knight, that they want to replicate to minimize retraining time.

I tried the demo, and I concluded that I simply CANT give you any feedback on the actual game until the Control issues are resolved.

[EvilPolygons]

Originally posted by twotimingpete:

Of course, the recommended way to play the game is with a standard dual analog controller, and I've tried to communicate this clearly. Playing with a keyboard start to finish is possible (as I've done it) but a controller is the best experience.

Just a nitpick, but there's really nothing "standard" about dual stick gamepads when it comes to PC gaming. On consoles, sure, but KB+M is and has always been the standard input on PC. I mean, I don't even own a gamepad. 🤷‍♂️

[Mabec]

Invest 15 bucks in a third party gamepad to enhance your experience. Imagine the struggle you put yourself thru with a keyboard option and the amount of titles opening up to you with a gamepad.

[<:)]

Originally posted by twotimingpete:

In general, aiming isn't even a required part of the game. Interestingly, I mostly play the game on keyboard when testing, because I don't want to find the controller or wait for it to turn on -- because aim mode isn't required to get through the game.

Curiously, at times I've struggled with the question as to whether the aim mode feature should be tutorialized early on or not, because its existence implies that it's more important than it is, and it may lead people to play the game in the "wrong" way. In general, it's a tool that helps you become more efficient/precise as you master things, or get into a situation where precision aiming will make your life a little easier. Most common usage for me is just aiming slightly as an enemy approaches to hit their head instead of their body, which does a bit more damage. It also may be helpful to shoot at enemies that are flying or floating around, but, obviously, you can maneuver yourself and shoot to the side, or up, or diagonally, without aim mode, to hit them -- The same way you do in many platforming games. The same way you do in Mega Man, or Contra, or Super Metroid. Unless I'm forgetting something, I don't think using it is *ever* required to progress.

Of course, the recommended way to play the game is with a standard dual analog controller, and I've tried to communicate this clearly. Playing with a keyboard start to finish is possible (as I've done it) but a controller is the best experience.

Obviously it's a handy feature to allow the user to remap all buttons, but in my case it'd be a large and confusing task to implement, and other things are taking priority. I won't rule it out, but for now, it's not there.

I'm sorry you're not having a good experience with the controls. I've explained the reasons for things being how they are several times now in different threads, though. If a thread just devolves into people repeating themselves or being rude, then it's not productive.

Sounds like a whole lot of excuses to avoid implementing a simple default expectation. Why would you have free aim on controller and not just implement the same for kbm?
edit: ok i tried playing with kbm after using controller and have to agree, it's completely unplayable. Do you hop up and down / run underneath to kill things you could just shoot at diagonally? Why would you implement diagonal and full 360 degree free aim with controller then not use the mouse for the same functionality? How can you even try to defend this horrible choice?

[D.A.R.K.]

Originally posted by twotimingpete:

In general, aiming isn't even a required part of the game. Interestingly, I mostly play the game on keyboard when testing, because I don't want to find the controller or wait for it to turn on -- because aim mode isn't required to get through the game.

Curiously, at times I've struggled with the question as to whether the aim mode feature should be tutorialized early on or not, because its existence implies that it's more important than it is, and it may lead people to play the game in the "wrong" way. In general, it's a tool that helps you become more efficient/precise as you master things, or get into a situation where precision aiming will make your life a little easier. Most common usage for me is just aiming slightly as an enemy approaches to hit their head instead of their body, which does a bit more damage. It also may be helpful to shoot at enemies that are flying or floating around, but, obviously, you can maneuver yourself and shoot to the side, or up, or diagonally, without aim mode, to hit them -- The same way you do in many platforming games. The same way you do in Mega Man, or Contra, or Super Metroid. Unless I'm forgetting something, I don't think using it is *ever* required to progress.

Of course, the recommended way to play the game is with a standard dual analog controller, and I've tried to communicate this clearly. Playing with a keyboard start to finish is possible (as I've done it) but a controller is the best experience.

Obviously it's a handy feature to allow the user to remap all buttons, but in my case it'd be a large and confusing task to implement, and other things are taking priority. I won't rule it out, but for now, it's not there.

I'm sorry you're not having a good experience with the controls. I've explained the reasons for things being how they are several times now in different threads, though. If a thread just devolves into people repeating themselves or being rude, then it's not productive.

This is a PC game, right? PC is, as default, played with Keyboard, not with controller. If you are saying you won't implement keyboard mapping because you think playing with controller is best, then you are telling the player how they should play, which is something horrible when talking about game developing. Also, when I purchase the game, I don't get a free controller to support it.

This is something that I talk A LOT with indie developers because, for some reason, a lot of indie games don't come with keyboard mapping, but let me tell you the BEST keyboard mapping there is: OUR OWN.

Literally allowing the player to re-map the keyboard buttons is the LITERAL BEST way to set everything, because THE PLAYER would tell how they want to manipulate the character.

I'm waiting for this game for something close to 8 years since I saw it, I was expecting a lot from it, but I can't play the demo because I have a hand condition that I can't squeeze my hands too tight... Because of how the keyboard setting is in the demo, I simply can't play the demo, or I would force my hand to play.

I'm not talking about cheap "I want to play my way" situation, I'm talking about the limitation that the keyboard mapping is in the demo, which doesn't allow players to play. I don't mind having to play with keyboard only, I don't think this is a limitation, the majority of metroidvania, platforms are keyboard only, but not allowing the player to set the keyboard controls is something that make no sense.

The reason behind you have multiples threads talking about this same issue is because this is a major issue that everybody is concern about, the more threads talking about one thing, the bigger the problem is, so... Ignoring threads isn't the right move, you can create a thread, talking about the issue, talking about the solution, and then moving all threads to this pin one.

For now, the only reason I can't see this game being a huge success is the keyboard mapping, you can be 100% sure, once the game release, 98% of the negative reviews will be about the keyboard settings, you can be sure of it.

[EvilPolygons]

Originally posted by Mabec:

Invest 15 bucks in a third party gamepad to enhance your experience. Imagine the struggle you put yourself thru with a keyboard option and the amount of titles opening up to you with a gamepad. :ne:

I'm a PC gamer. Expecting me to play a PC game with a gamepad is like asking console players to go out and buy keyboards and mice to play FPS games on their console; sure, such things DO exist, but prepare for some crazy backlash if you try pushing it on them.

[Outsider]

TMNT Shredder's Revenge just got released, and rebinding controls to WSAD and JKL makes it play like on hitbox controller, i.e. absolutely perfect.
Just add rebinding menu like in any functional PC game please.

[Melodia]

Originally posted by EvilPolygons:

I'm a PC gamer. Expecting me to play a PC game with a gamepad is like asking console players to go out and buy keyboards and mice to play FPS games on their console; sure, such things DO exist, but prepare for some crazy backlash if you try pushing it on them.

Real Yakuza Use a Gamepad.

[Mabec]

So if title is released first on console and later PC it would be fine playing with gamepad on PC?

[EvilPolygons]

Originally posted by Melodia:

Originally posted by EvilPolygons:

I'm a PC gamer. Expecting me to play a PC game with a gamepad is like asking console players to go out and buy keyboards and mice to play FPS games on their console; sure, such things DO exist, but prepare for some crazy backlash if you try pushing it on them.

Real Yakuza Use a Gamepad.

"Real" Yakuza often don't have all their fingers and can't even properly use a gamepad.

[EvilPolygons]

Originally posted by Mabec:

So if title is released first on console and later PC it would be fine playing with gamepad on PC?

No, that would just be yet another lousy console port made by console devs who simply don't understand the PC platform. I mean, you're not pitching a hypothetical here; PC gamers have been dealing with bad console ports for over 20 years.

Things *have* gotten better on that front in recent years, though. These days it's much more common for ports to come over with decent KB+M support and customizable keybinds.

You design for the platform you're making a product for. As I said, imagine if every FPS that got ported to console required a KB+M "because it came from PC." Console gamers would lose their minds, lol.