Brain Storming ways to bring SMGs on par with other weapons.

[Honzou]

So I've been wracking my brain in thinking of ways to make some tweaks for SMG be useful overall. I've come with ideas of adding a piercing pasive, shredding rounds, some "inferno" rounds abilities or something.

Normally I would just ask fellow modders, but I like to hear a variety of opinione on this if anyone is willing to spare their thoughts.

[Candy Witch]

I'd tune either the accuracy or damage up slightly, just to reflect how you're hosing targets down with bullets with this weapon type. Nothing fancy.

Preferably accuracy. I know it sounds counter to the logic behind the weapon and automatic fire, but I'm thinking of how it would be represented in terms of game mechanics. SMGs shouldn't be too powerful in stopping power or armor penetration, they should make it easier for you to hit often because you shoot more bullets in the target's general direction, and it is past the 2050s after all, and I'd wager most SMG models have some decent recoil suppression installed to justify this function.

IMHO.

[Honzou]

That would make sense Cause SMG really have absurdly low accuracy. Someone else in another chat suggested adding to the basic attack "flush" effect. Since SMG do barely any damage.

[Candy Witch]

Not sure about that; it could quickly fall into being too overpowered. For example, I gave Gobbet two extra SMGs in the vanilla game, and she could flush up to three targets out of cover every round because the cooldowns on Flush are individual to each weapon, not global. Then the rest of the team would play rocket tag with the flushed target(s).

Just seeing that in action felt very unbalanced. Cover itself is a game mechanic that plays a huge role in the survivability of combattants.

I actually felt like the SMG Flush technique should be global, once per turn per character. Because the way I used it gave me a huge advantage.

[ReeNoiP]

Maybe have some abilities that do AP damage, cause bleeding or lower accuracy or movement of the target.

It would signify you are hosing them down, forcing them to keep their head down or causing wounds even on armored targets. It also helps set SMGs apart from the more direct damage approach of rifles.

A run and gun ability would give you some extra movement before shooting for eaiser flanks.

Shoot wildly would give you more shots, but cost more ammo and lower your defense until your next turn.

[Banjo Oz]

I was actually working on a "tweak mod" for SMGs last night, given that they are the most "underdeveloped" class of weapon (ability-wise and utility wise).

The reason I started was mostly to add "selective fire" to some of the SMGs (as their PnP versions indicate they should have), such as single shot and/or full auto modes, depending on the gun... but then I started looking at other ways to bring them up to the same viability level as other weapons in the game, since I've always felt the same way as the OP about this class of weapon.

I've long maintained (since SRR) that an extra 'Suppress Target' type skill would be a very welcome and helpful addition to the SMG specialization line (which has the least abilities of all the firearm types): a skill that does AP damage (and possibly reduces accuracy too) as it effectively "pins down" the target and keeps their heads down so they can't move or fire back. I've used my own homebrew ability of this sort since Dragonfall, in fact.

I also added a specialization-dependant "armor piercing ammo" attack (somewhat based on the abilities Blitz gets in Dragonfall) but this probably needs testing to make sure its not too overpowered!

Finally, although I wanted to keep "new content" to a minimum, I also added a couple of "new" (SR PnP-based) SMGs, including the Ingram SuperMach 100... because I love that crazy thing! :)

I was making this for my own use, but reading this thread made me think I'd share it if enough folks were interested in this little mod?

[Honzou]

That's very interesting Banjo. I was also talking to Axis and other members of SRI. He suggested making a "Red Ryder BB" SMG where it would do 1HP damage, but it could have a "-Movement" and "-ACC" that way it would give a non lethal option for SMGs without cluttering the main SMG skill line.

I was thinking of that perk you mention about Armpiercing making it as a SMG 7 along with fee reload perk since SMG drains bullets, and we considered giving a fullauto skill to SMG that drained all the ammo at SMG 6.

[[UA] Duckstep]

slightly off topic, I would like to see melee attacks used as a skill with ranged weapons. pistol whip,butt stock hit, bayonet kind of attacks.

too help make smg's unique they may get a passive bonus to attack within 3-4 tiles since the smg is known for being the close quarter rifle. while rifle may get a disadvantage on accuracy being used within 1 tile.

[Watchman]

Originally posted by Banjo Oz:

The reason I started was mostly to add "selective fire" to some of the SMGs (as their PnP versions indicate they should have), such as single shot and/or full auto modes, depending on the gun...

Note that the people who write up guns for various iterations of SR are fools, and should be eaten. They consistently demonstrate gross ignorance of the basic principles and logic of firearms design (and sometimes the actual rules fo the game; to wit, the impossible gasvent-silencer combo the Ingram Smartgun *still* has as of 5th ed...) and duly generate endless BS instead of at least vaguely credible designs. (ARs with built-in grenade launchers, lol.)
Relatedly: like half the SMGs are burst and/or full-auto only, when in the real world people stopped designing such around WW2... even "cheap and nasty" wartime ones (which could be built by village smiths and Resistance basement workshops) like the Sten and the PPSh tended to be selective-fire.

[Honzou]

I guess Noodle i can try accomodating ya with a "test weapon", but I'm not sure there is an animation for ranged weapon "stock whip". So the melee weapon animation may look weird hen used on a gun.

[baardvaark]

This would be a big chance, but IMO SMGs should be the only weapons with the flush ability. Assault Rifles would be more balanced and SMGs would have their niche. I also like the ReeNoiP's Run and Gun idea where it'd net you more movement (though not quite sure how that'd work. Just a 1 AP +movement ability that lasts for the rest of the round, I guess? Would have to be a lot of movement to make up for that AP used, though). I think SMGs should be more mobile then ARs, but maybe not as accurate as pistols.

[Watchman]

Originally posted by baardvaark:

but maybe not as accurate as pistols.

That doesn't really compute as they have longer barrels, more recoil-absorbing mass, and are normally used with two hands and a stock giving a *much* stabler platform...

If anything ought to be the "mobile" weapons it should be the handguns which are by far the lightest and handiest of the lot really. You could probably make something out of the inherently higher to-hit chances of automatic fire (sending more lead downrange gives more margin of error as the odds of at least *some* bullets are higher; shotguns are based on the same principle) - technically this should also apply to any automatic, but you can probably handwave real-world physics* in the interests of diversity.


* AFAIK the practical recoil impulses of the intermediate rifle rounds and battleworthy pistol calibers are more or less similar...

[[UA] Duckstep]

Originally posted by Honzou:

I guess Noodle i can try accomodating ya with a "test weapon", but I'm not sure there is an animation for ranged weapon "stock whip". So the melee weapon animation may look weird hen used on a gun.

i know what you mean ive been thinking this through and doesn't seem possible for some animations. but how cool would that be to be able to pistol whip someone?!

[Banjo Oz]

Okay, the mod is "done", at least enough to post, so I am going to.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=568977716
or
http://www.nexusmods.com/shadowrunhongkong/mods/12

Please give feedback, especially on balance issues. I am less worried about realism as I am with 1st: unbalancing the vanilla game by adding new stuff (especially new abilities) and 2nd: faithfulness to the PnP game.

Further thoughts and rationales for the mod's changes below (sorry for the long post!).

FAITHFULNESS TO SR:PNP
My issues here are 1) I grew up playing a ton of Cyberpunk 2020, but my Shadowrun experience was mostly limited to the SNES game. I became more interested in the SR PnP after playing SRR and have read a few of the sourcebooks, but my experience with the PnP world (especially compared to Cyberpunk) is very limited, so I appreciate help where I have missed or misunderstood something, particularly "lore" stuff.

SELECTIVE FIRE MODES
Like most RPGs from the same period (Cyberpunk was guilty of this too), Shadowrun often ignores reality in favor of genre-flavour, leading to stuff like the non-selective fire (modern) SMGs Watchman mentions. Even putting aside the year the game was originally made (where anything post 2000 was still "the far future"), it does seem odd!

This presents me with a dilemma: instinct is to just make all the SMGs selective fire (single, burst, full auto) but I also not only want to match the stats of the PnP (logical or not), since this is "Shadowrun" not "generic real-world shooter", but also that I like the idea of making weapons more different from each other in ways other than just skill requirement/ammo capacity/damage. Thus, I've kept to the PnP "modes" for each SMG for now, but I am open to changing this to simply make them *all* 3-mode selective, if that better suits balance in enough folks' opinions.

RUN & GUN
As much as I like the idea too, I have not added the suggested Run & Gun type ability, because to me, if SMGs got that, then so should Pistols. I already have a (private) mod that adds lots of new abilities to the game (likely totally unbalancing it, hence why its "private" thus far!) and may test such an ability with that in future, though.

SUPPRESS TARGET
A version of the custom ability I've been using via (private) mod since Dragonfall, as I've always *strongly* thought that SMGs needed one extra ability to compete with the other weapon classes, and it seemed odd to me that there was a way to flush targets out of cover, but not one to "pin them down". This ability does 1AP damage but no HP damage (i.e. it assumes you "fire over their heads") and also prevents the target from moving for their next turn (similar to the spell Glue). I am open to the opinion that this should do reduced HP damage and/or causes an Accuracy reduction for the target as well, though I think the way it stands now is better for balance. Unlocks at SMG level 6.

FULL AUTO MODE
I had already added this, unlocking at SMG level 3. I considered making this higher, however I felt that firing "full auto" was something that should take at least no more skill with an SMG than with a Rifle (also a level 3 unlock). This ability works just like the Rifle one, except if fires more bullets as per SMG burst mode.

BB-GUN STYLE (NON-LETHAL) ATTACK
I like this idea in theory, as it fits with another mod I am working on (variable ammo, as "Gel Rounds"). However, I wanted to keep the changes in this one to a minimum, and felt that adding one major ability (Suppress Target) plus full auto mode was probably enough for now.

NEW WEAPONS
The AK97 Carbine, H&K MP-5 TX and Ingram SuperMach 100 are added, though they will only show up in the game if you assign them to a merchant (merchant lists are included to make this easier). These are purely based on their PnP versions, and they (SuperMach especially) need testing to make sure it fits in with the other weapons balance-wise. Those who know these guns well from the PnP are especially welcome to throw in their opinions.

NEW SMG SPECIALIZATION LINE
For easy reference, this now looks like:
Level 1: Spray and Pray (also unlocks Aimed Shot with single shot mode)
Level 2: Shows critical damage percentage
Level 3: Full Auto
Level 4: Aimed Shot
Level 5: Flush Target
Level 6: Suppress Target
In my mind, Flush Target and Suppress Target should probably be "swapped", but I didn't want to make such a drastic change from the vanilla game unless enough people agreed.

FINAL NOTE
Note that while - in making this mod public - I want to have a version lots of folks like and am definitely open to making changes as outlined above, complaints of "this mod sucks because in real life..." will probably be ignored! :)

[Honzou]

Banjo, have you managed to find a way to apply the auto reload trait from pistols? I can't seem to find on the documents aside of Auto reload all from Eiger,

[Banjo Oz]

Originally posted by Honzou:

Banjo, have you managed to find a way to apply the auto reload trait from pistols? I can't seem to find on the documents aside of Auto reload all from Eiger,

I knew there was something I forgot to mention in the long-winded post above! I meant to also say:

AUTO-RELOAD SMGS
I actually attempted to add this a while ago while working on my "more abilities" mod (I'd already tweaked the ReloadAll skill to work for other characters as part of that), but I never did because I had *no* idea how to implement this whatsoever! :( I actually don't have a clue how it works in the game for Pistols, as I couldn't even find an ability or anything related to it in the code, either in HK or Dragonfall.

So yeah, I'm afraid I haven't found out how it works in the game, or how to replicate it with another weapon. I am worried it's hard-coded, though that would be rather odd since nothing else like it is. I might have another poke around today; if you find anything, please let me know.

Originally posted by Wratts:

I actually felt like the SMG Flush technique should be global, once per turn per character. Because the way I used it gave me a huge advantage.

I'm actually thinking about adding this tweak to my Selective SMGs mod, but only if people don't object and like the idea too. I agree that being able to use multiple versions of a weapon to skip some ability cooldowns feels like "cheating" sometimes, especially with abilities like Flush Target.