Player Character - Conjurer - Kinda Gets The Shaft ?

[ccwylde70]

Playing ' The Caldecott Caper ' now. After going through the Hong Kong primary and supplemental game as a shotgun-toting bionic orc, I decided I'd try elf shaman for this new add-on. Wasn't aware until starting that my one NPC friend to start the game would also be a shaman (Arghhh ...)

At any rate, I can't help noticing that he (and all the NPC conjurers I met in the HK games) all have permanent summon spirit things that come with them from mission to mission. Sure, they get used up and stay gone until the mission is over, but once the next mission starts, there they are again.

My character, on the other hand .... whenever I use one of these things to conjure up a spirit, it's gone, Poof ! Never to return again. End of Story. No spell I can learn to conjure up my spirits ? I have to keep buying disposable (and expensive) bits to summon up my own spirits ? Mmmm ... that kinda .... sucks ?

Of/c, there's the occassional 'free spirit' you can find hanging out, just lying on the ground once in awhile, and that's better than no spirits but ... a conjurer that can't conjure w/o temporary aids seems a bit like a parlor trick performer to me. Once I've put down the initial money for a shotgun, my shotgun toting orc only really needed me to advance up the ranks with my karma to become murderously effective with that thing, even at ridiculous ranges. This conjurer I'm making, though, looks like he's gonna be a huge cash-siphon just to do his thing, though. Sure, there are some other conjurer-based spells I imagine he'll get good use out of, but I mainly got him with the idea of being a spirit summoner, so I'm having to rethink this right from the get go.

Any experienced Conjurers out there who have some good advice? Either in general regarding that class or in particular to this Caldecott Caper ? I'm not looking for real spoilers here, but some helpful info on the class might be useful. Or maybe I should stick with a shotgun-toting cyber-orc. Lol :)

[uncus2]

Summoning is a tough and expensive road. Some of the spells [Haste/DOTs] are good; the barriers can situationally be effective and the clouds are usually a waste [as you can usually shoot through them unlike a smoke grenade]. One of my primaries is a decker/shaman, so I am always short on cash. I only have my decking to 5 and put a few points in rifles to provide a little long range support besides the heal and haste. I also carry a few medkits and even 1 drone kit besides 2 summon tokens [which I don't use half the time as I leave the enemy conjuror alive to call a spirit which Gobbet hijacks - I took the dove totem to maintain control of any summons]

[ccwylde70]

Thanks for that - yeah, I found Gobbet to be a true bad ass in the HK games - quite often, I had her summoning up the Devil Rat and the other spirit she always had to call, but just as often, she was busy hijacking (and sometimes consuming, with that other skill) other people's spirits. I was thinking of something along those lines when I was making up my own summoner, but eh ... not so thrilled about the token thing now. I picked up rifle skill early as well - low dodge and low hpts is already making my character the cannon fodder target even hiding behind cover, though .. shotgun cyber orc could wade out into a pile of enemies with his super high dodge/quickness/health and laugh at their feeble attempts to lay him low. This tissue paper elf, however, is taking a lot of effort to get used to ... lol ... maybe I should leave conjuring to the NPCs and just admire their skills from a distance.

[Ninthshadow]

Every class has their living expenses, it's more noticable in SR:HK because of the somewhat tighter budget than the previous games. It's paticularly noticable as the Shaman however, because of the way they changed the enviroment spirits.

Previously, they behaved in the same way as a 'pocket' spirit. They could hang around virtually forever, if you were lucky. In SR:HK, they became seemingly more powerful but they last 2 turns exactly. No more, no less.

Essentially, the way I figure it, the money you 'lost' as the cyber-orc went onto cyberware, consumables like grenades, stims and medkits. Not to mention less than optimal purchases to keep your shotgun/armor on the cutting edge at all times.

This is just the Shaman equivelent. You've got spells (Relatively permenant additions), a potential weapon in the form of Acid Bolt and the real money sink, the fetishes. I don't know about the vendors in that module but Crafty always has a item that passively boosts a stat for each spellcaster (Mage and Shaman).

Arguably, I would say to use the same mentality as grenades. They're useful but you don't want to waste them. The Haste spell alone is worth it's weight in gold. People love totems, it's part of most people's Minmax builds. Can we have a moment for the fringe benefit of high charisma giving you a free pass to most social challenges? Arguably, some of the Shaman's strength might be in not having to fight at all.

Spirits are awesome, but the question you have to ask is do I need one for this fight? Alternatively, 'is this worth X nuyen to secure an easy win?'. Same way you would with combat stims, grenades, medkits... basically anything else that goes in those slots.

The problem is we get spoiled seeing characters like Gobbet, stealing spirits etc. Riggers would give their left foot for Racter's little buff tool. Much like Gaichu with his sword stances for a melee character, the NPCs are capable of things that make the player jealous half the time!

[ccwylde70]

@Ninthshadow: Solid all-around answer ! Thanks for that :)

Funny to me that you would compare the tokens to grenades - funny only in the sense that on the few occassions I actually would use grenades, it was almost always .... um ... off the NPCs that got 'free grenades' with every run (or the grenade-launcher, where every grenade was freeeeee) ... I rarely ever bought grenades off vendors - it was easier to just scoop up the few that were found on the missions and save them for (very) rainy days !

Comparing it to cyberware/more effective weaponry is probably the fairer way to say "ok, you got me" though I feel it's safe to say I'm most likely going to also a) keep upgrading my rifle on my shaman and b) probably at least dabble with some cyberware for him as well, regardless of some Essence loss. Truth be told, I'd be solid if I just got ONE reusable Spirit Token per mission, and that it would be something I choose to upgrade along the Karma Skill Tree if I desired, but atm that is wishful thinking, I suppose !

I haven't ever tried out the Totems, I suppose I'll have to give those a whirl and see how beneficial they are. I have a feeling this character'll end up similar to my other one, but running rifle instead of shotgun, and getting some Conjuration in there, from time to time. He's going to have to get some body building in, here or there, though. This 'one shot, near death's door' thing is gettin' old ! ;)

[Raincloud Man]

This is basically why I started loving cyberware melee builds. A lot of the time, going full cyber sam is the most expensive class, but in this game it's actually quite cheap, relatively speaking.
It still costs a ton of nuyen, but everything goes into permanent upgrades!

[OptoNick]

Oh man, I had played through Antumbra Saga as an elf shaman, too, that was the toughest experience across all my 250+ hours in SR games :D

In Caldecott Caper you'll meet two good damage dealers: melee fighter/decker and fiery mage. So blur spells and barrier spells will come in handy. It also means you can skip Fire spirits. Nothing more special about Caldecott Caper in that regard, general shaman routine would work there: always keep one fetish in inventory, but don't use it if your party is not heavily outnumbered.

BTW, in DF was one cheat-ass totem - Dragonslayer. It keeps summoned spirit for a few turns without chance to break out if you're standing in radius of 3 tiles from spirit; and it can be renewed infinitely. I haven't check, is there this totem in HK?

[Rina]

There is the dove. It sets the breakaway chance to 0% if you stand 3 tiles from the spirit but it only lasts 2 rounds and has a cooldown of 3.

[Honzou]

Unfortunately summoning spirits is a money sink, one that I've come to think as too deep a cost right next to ESPs (Deckers' summons). The difference between Riggers, ESPs, and Spirits is that the Spirits are high risk/high reward unless RNG decides to pull a fast one and it becomes just high risk, and a cup of tears due to the wasted nuyen.

Sad thing is that a tier 1 grenade will always be useful while a tier 1 spirit will not as the game progresses.

[Tingly]

Yeah, it's unfortunate. The ability to make a PC shaman competitive feels like it's there, but not realized. I think the game and shamans especially would really benefit if consumables on the PC were refilled between runs (made more expensive for balance), and PC shamans had some of the perks Gobbet gets.

[Ninthshadow]

Originally posted by Honzou:

Unfortunately summoning spirits is a money sink, one that I've come to think as too deep a cost right next to ESPs (Deckers' summons).

Offtopic nitpick from an avid decker player:

ESPs don't belong in this list. They are single time purchases, with their strength determined by the karma put into ESP control. They can be summoned multiple times per mission, and even if they die, they get restored back to your inventory at the end. They're even better than drones, you never need to upgrade an ESP!

Arguably, half the stuff isn't needed with the new stealth mechanic to decking, if you're that good. I still think it's silly to assume you'll never have to fight an IC though.

Of all the potential worthwhile purchases (nuyen wise at least) ESPs are easily as cost efficient as regular programs, if not more so.

In the main campaigns at least, easily the best 1.5k or so you'll ever spend as a decker, if you buy 2 straight out the gate. One attacker and assassin can last you the whole game. A third is a luxury that comes with the top end decks at the end game.

[ccwylde70]

Thanks for clearing up that last bit re: decking, as I also had plans to eventually make a decker, and was starting to go " What ?! You gotta keep buying ESPs, too ?!?! " Yeah, might not have even bothered trying if that had been true !

[Ichthyic]

"Arguably, half the stuff isn't needed with the new stealth mechanic to decking, if you're that good. I still think it's silly to assume you'll never have to fight an IC though. "

no. there are matrices in both HK campaings that have levels with hostile IC already active, and you will go into combat immediately on entering the area.

so running fast to avoid scanners is good (hence, the level 2 speed boost is awesome for less twitchy players like myself), but you WILL run into areas where you will be forced into combat with no option.

[Ichthyic]

...as far as the OP of the thread goes... seems to me that the easiest way to make shamans competetive would simply be by lowering the costs of summoning fetishes.

that would be tedious (since there are so many), but easy to do.

make them the same relative prices as grenades, scaled up.

[di eshor ribly]

Originally posted by OptoNick:

BTW, in DF was one cheat-ass totem - Dragonslayer. It keeps summoned spirit for a few turns without chance to break out if you're standing in radius of 3 tiles from spirit; and it can be renewed infinitely. I haven't check, is there this totem in HK?

You're thinking of the Creator/Dove (DF/HK). Dragonslayer was Dietrich's totem, and gave reduced damage/damage to enemies.

[Sensor Sweep]

I think it's theoretically possible to make a pure conjurer by dumping into CHA and the summon skill and trade spell and weapon money for fetishes (which I think would be interesting even though shaman is my least favorite archetype). The problem is I think fetishes were only meant to be used in tough battles, which is really the only time I feel like investing 1K+ in a single fight. And you'd have no power of your own. One flashbang and you're done.

Kinda sucks that shamans are just spellcasters with a different stat, spells, and have the conjuring tool, but their skills can turn a tough battle quickly. I just never like building one because the teammates are sufficient and I feel the need to have the combat lead that shamans lack. They can be fun, but I find them to be the most difficult to use.

That said I'd never play shaman on Caldecott Caper or Antumbra Saga. Base game alone is rough on shamans. But those two campaigns are so much more difficult in the early stages.