Why would burning our SIN's completely erase us from facial recognition despite copies?

[Phoenix7786]

Heya all I started playing through this again, loving as much as ever. Anywys, they mention that a single picture of us (as well DNA samples) could be captured by any drone or camera and get us traced, hence burning our SIN's. I get that our DNA and other personal records could be erased, but what about our faces? We see that even after getting burned, they still have pictures of our faces. What would stop them from simply re-inserting our faces into facial recognition software on cameras and drones?

[OptoNick]

They could, but those faces won't be linked to a certain SIN - no financial traces, no DNA checks

[Raincloud Man]

Burning your SIN isn't something you do to yourself, it literally means erasing EVERYTHING that is linked to the number. So once you're SINless you pretty much don't exist in any computer record anywhere, that includes your face.

[Carni]

By the same token you could ask why they didn't just get some kind of plastic surgery done.

Or how a Hong Kong mid level crime boss had the pull to have the SIN of someone from Seattle burned.

Or why the government of all things doesn't seem to have a backup of their files off the grid.

The way I see it, you can poke plot holes into just about anything if you really want to.

[Hex]

Originally posted by Carni:

By the same token you could ask why they didn't just get some kind of plastic surgery done.

Or how a Hong Kong mid level crime boss had the pull to have the SIN of someone from Seattle burned.

Or why the government of all things doesn't seem to have a backup of their files off the grid.

The way I see it, you can poke plot holes into just about anything if you really want to.

The dronea and traffic cams don't have local databases, you only need to wipe one database per administrative sector. For example, one in the entire UCAS, or one in Japan etc, once your SIN is erased from that database, taking your picture and imputting it into the database comes up blank, and since information is highly centralized after the internet crash, there's only a handful of databases in the entire world.

There's a huge amount of SINless in he world, the automated system spotting one isn't going to raise an alarm or something. In the completely automated system, once your SIN is burned you don't exist, and there's a lot of people in the SR world like that, you're just a blank face in the crowd.

"HK mid-level crime boss" easily has the pull. The triad probably do that pretty regularly when moving people and assets for Corporations.

Erasin it from the backups as well is probably the more costly part of the process.

Always makes me laugh when people scream PLOTHOLES!!!! in ficional work they know nothing about

[Phoenix7786]

Oh don't get me wrong I don't scream plothole since EVERYTHING has them. I'm by no means a SR expert, but I have been following it since the days of the SNES and Genesis versions (which lead into SR 3.0's core-book). All 3 SRR games have been some of the most satisfying dollars I've ever spent and my hours logged are a testament to that.

The scenario I brought up was just one of those times when you've played something so many times that random thoughts and blurbs come to mind. In this case, it made me stop and ask why they couldn't put an APB into all the drones and cameras for our faces even after our SIN's are wiped. Perhaps I need to retitle the thread title so I don't come off so aggressively.

[Hex]

Originally posted by Randy:

Oh don't get me wrong I don't scream plothole since EVERYTHING has them. I'm by no means a SR expert, but I have been following it since the days of the SNES and Genesis versions (which lead into SR 3.0's core-book). All 3 SRR games have been some of the most satisfying dollars I've ever spent and my hours logged are a testament to that.

The scenario I brought up was just one of those times when you've played something so many times that random thoughts and blurbs come to mind. In this case, it made me stop and ask why they couldn't put an APB into all the drones and cameras for our faces even after our SIN's are wiped. Perhaps I need to retitle the thread title so I don't come off so aggressively.

That's why you're hiding out in Heoi except when you go out on runs. As Gobbet says, camereas don't last long there and the smog and rain makes it impossible for drones. When you travel, you use the metro so you're underground so, again, no drones. When you do the Shangri-la job the cops are on their way when you escape. Cameras don't cover the entire city or anything, just the better parts of it,

[Raincloud Man]

Originally posted by Hex:

Originally posted by Randy:

Oh don't get me wrong I don't scream plothole since EVERYTHING has them. I'm by no means a SR expert, but I have been following it since the days of the SNES and Genesis versions (which lead into SR 3.0's core-book). All 3 SRR games have been some of the most satisfying dollars I've ever spent and my hours logged are a testament to that.

The scenario I brought up was just one of those times when you've played something so many times that random thoughts and blurbs come to mind. In this case, it made me stop and ask why they couldn't put an APB into all the drones and cameras for our faces even after our SIN's are wiped. Perhaps I need to retitle the thread title so I don't come off so aggressively.

That's why you're hiding out in Heoi except when you go out on runs. As Gobbet says, camereas don't last long there and the smog and rain makes it impossible for drones. When you travel, you use the metro so you're underground so, again, no drones. When you do the Shangri-la job the cops are on their way when you escape. Cameras don't cover the entire city or anything, just the better parts of it,

Also, without a facial database reference, all the cameras and drones would have to be manually monitored by a human being with a paper printout of your faces to even have a chance of recognizing you. And in SR, that kind of thing is VERY rarely done.

[Hex]

Originally posted by Zagreus:

Originally posted by Hex:

That's why you're hiding out in Heoi except when you go out on runs. As Gobbet says, camereas don't last long there and the smog and rain makes it impossible for drones. When you travel, you use the metro so you're underground so, again, no drones. When you do the Shangri-la job the cops are on their way when you escape. Cameras don't cover the entire city or anything, just the better parts of it,

Also, without a facial database reference, all the cameras and drones would have to be manually monitored by a human being with a paper printout of your faces to even have a chance of recognizing you. And in SR, that kind of thing is VERY rarely done.

Also, it's monsoon season, there's constant heavy rain with the Awakened hurricane off the coast making any camera footage bad at best.

[Carni]

It wasn't my intention to scream plothole either, so no need to be quite so sensitive oô

It's fiction. Very enjoyable fiction at that. But as I said, you can poke holes into pretty much anything if you feel like it. Doesn't mean you have to.

Though I will say that I'm somewhat confused by the fact that the bonus story makes it clear that backup files do, in fact, still exist. They even offer to have your SIN restored which kinda makes me wonder why they didn't just do that when they were still hunting you.

[Makin' Biscuits]

I don't see this as a plot hole so much as a side effect of Shadowrun canon being rooted in (an imperfect understanding of) late 80s/early 90s technology. Massively parallel redundant datastores became common in the real world late 00s, so they are ignored (or possibly explained away by retcon?). Being able to "erase" a SIN would mean SINs are managed by technology far less advanced than what currently runs Bitcoin.

[Mack Yuu]

Originally posted by Carni:

It wasn't my intention to scream plothole either, so no need to be quite so sensitive oô

It's fiction. Very enjoyable fiction at that. But as I said, you can poke holes into pretty much anything if you feel like it. Doesn't mean you have to.

Though I will say that I'm somewhat confused by the fact that the bonus story makes it clear that backup files do, in fact, still exist. They even offer to have your SIN restored which kinda makes me wonder why they didn't just do that when they were still hunting you.

Just saying, the extra content...isn't really good. I played it once because I was curious, and I doubt I'll ever touch it again, even on subsequent playthroughs. It opens more plotholes than it closes, and it's just...not really good. In design or story aspects.

As for the general burning of SINs stuff, I was under the impression that the SR world is not one where redundancies run on the same servers as primary copies. Or, the person who wiped yours and Duncan's SIN was good enough to make a copy *just in case*. But until that point where they're restored, like Duncan says, you don't exist, electronically speaking. Meaning that even if you get scanned by fingerprint or facial scanners, there's nothing to go back to.

In other words, any human who's seen the pictures could recognize you or Duncan. But anything that tries to match input to a file would fail. And since, in running the shadows, one tends to avoid places where wageslaves and suburban housewives tend to gather, a Runner can *reasonably* assume almost total immunity from recognition.