Building a melee elf?

[e11]

I played SR and DF as a Quickness-focused elf with near maxed-out Rifle and a little splash of utility magic. I found it a highly effective build, but it's maybe time to try something else.

Now, I KNOW that Trolls and Orcs are more optimised for melee smashing, but I just like elves, and I never maxed any stat out anyway.

So, you folks who understand the system better than I do, what makes for an effective melee character? Should I dip into Chi casting, or spend the difference on Dodge and Body?

[Lord Of Dorkness]

Rank seven is a sweat-spot for most skills, with some exceptions. (Etiquetts, Rigging.)

So, yeah, no problem with making an elf a combat monster. Since there's no way of grinding Karma those maximums slash minimums seldom matter.

[e11]

Originally posted by Lord Of Dorkness:

Rank seven is a sweat-spot for most skills, with some exceptions. (Etiquetts, Rigging.)

So, yeah, no problem with making an elf a combat monster. Since there's no way of grinding Karma those maximums slash minimums seldom matter.

Thanks for commenting. But can you recommend or advice against a general build? Like, should I focus on Body instead of Quickness, and are bare hands or melee weapons demonstrably better than the other?

[Lord Of Dorkness]

Quickness should be an afterthought in a melee character. Dodge is nice, but it should be seen as a minor bonus.

Body is a must. You'll be taking a lot of damage so close, but since Body also gives damage resistance as well as more hit-points it's a very important.

And the varius melee options are mainly tied to Strenght in how much damage they do, making them very balanced damage wise. I prefer fist-weapons myself (unarmed) since the bleed damage shuts down enemy healing and they stack with killing hands, but I've heard a lot of people swear by the AP damage of the swords.

Still, my personal favorite in HK is cyber. They cost essesnce (and money) but does both AP damage, bleed and peirce armor.

The last one does not play quite as nice with Chi, though.

Hope that helps.

[di eshor ribly]

I'd actually recommend playing a walking cyberweapon. For the melee build stick with either the Spurs or Hand Razors, whichever you prefer. Your main concerns are Body, Cyber Affinity, Strength, Close Combat, and a little Quickness/Dodge.

After that, load yourself up with as much cyber as you can handle. Some fun favorites for this build are the Poison Sac bioware, Flashbulb Eye (or laser designator if you prefer that for other teammates), Hydraulic Jack leg, JoltAlert, Magnetic Arm, the platelette healing Skin bioware whose name escapes me, and the AP Wired Reflexes (or the dodge one if you prefer).

Basically you run around disembowelling everyone, poisoning people, blinding/targetting them, auto throwing grenades back, and auto-dodging/more brutality. The healing is for when you take some damage.

If you have a little karma left over (6) get the Leopard totem for the extra armor and mobility. With the cyber and late game armor you'll have a natural 10 armor and a sizeable array of toys to bring out at a moments notice.

[e11]

Originally posted by di eshor ribly:

I'd actually recommend playing a walking cyberweapon. For the melee build stick with either the Spurs or Hand Razors, whichever you prefer. Your main concerns are Body, Cyber Affinity, Strength, Close Combat, and a little Quickness/Dodge.

After that, load yourself up with as much cyber as you can handle. Some fun favorites for this build are the Poison Sac bioware, Flashbulb Eye (or laser designator if you prefer that for other teammates), Hydraulic Jack leg, JoltAlert, Magnetic Arm, the platelette healing Skin bioware whose name escapes me, and the AP Wired Reflexes (or the dodge one if you prefer).

I appreciate the detailed advice and I'll consider it, but I really am more fond of the idea of having a bit of magic as well. Any advice on how high to aim with the melee weapon skill?

[di eshor ribly]

Originally posted by e11:

I appreciate the detailed advice and I'll consider it, but I really am more fond of the idea of having a bit of magic as well. Any advice on how high to aim with the melee weapon skill?

The general consensus is 6 being the absolute minimum. Higher skill levels are advised, but don't rob yourself of the fun of an extra skill just to reach absurd levels.

Edit: That's only if you want the extra combat abilities. If you want to just be a spell slinging adept, all you need is Strength, Close Combat, Body, Willpower, Qi Casting, and Spellcasting. Qi Strike and Qi Onslaught take the place of combat abilities like Cleave and Pommel Strike.

I'd still reach 6+ with CC to be able to hit anything. Spellcasting should end up around 6-8, and Qi can stop around 6 as well for Onslaught. Higher levels or other skills (shamanism perhaps) are up to you. The JoltAlert cyberarm is still recommended due to the 0 essence cost and prevention of total AP loss.

[frdnwsm]

There are two ways of specializing in close combat. Cyber yourself up, or be a Qi adept. I've tried both, and prefer the Qi spellcasting build, simply because you can grab a bunch of spells that can be used to buff up other crew members as well as yourself, while cyber gear is only improving yourself.

Trolls are the best for close combat .. not because of the racial maximums, but because it takes a lot of karma to bring an elf or human up to a troll's starting strength and body ... but you already know that. Elves do have one advantage; they get bonus charisma. Since I usually advise getting 2 etiquette skills ... generally Security and either Corp or Shadowrunner ... and a charisma of 5 for Prosperity Tower run, this comes in handy there. I'd pump strength and close combat up to 7, and the same for Qi casting. You do want Qi Onslaught as a skill. Body can vary somewhat; 7 is great, but if you find yourself a bit short of karma, you can leave body at 6; 60 HP is fairly decent.

If you min/max, you will have extra karma available, so grab 3 ranks of spirit summoning and get the Leopard totem; this gives you passive +1 to armor and movement. Being a close combat adept is all about mobility. Run up, knock the enemy out of cover so your buddies can shoot them, then run back into cover yourself. As a side benefit of this skill, you can also summon local spirits for 2 rounds.

2 ranks of conjuration will let you get Haste1, which is always nice, and some ranks of Spelll Casting will give you buff and utility spells like Aim1, Heal1 etc. Haste buff gives you a very important extra AP early in the game, when you only have 2 AP to work with.

3 ranks of cyber affinity let you get one medium cyber item without loss of essence or spell slots. I always recommend the magnetic arm, for protection from grenades. As a side benefit, you can also grab the jolt alert; no essence loss and fairly cheap at 1000 NuYen. Note that you need 2 ranks of cyber affinity anyway to install this, so it's not that much of a step up to go for all 3.

Bonded spell should be one of the targets you have as a goal for your Qi casting, since it combines both klling hands and stride, meaning it takes up one spell slot instead of two.

Good weapons will allow you to get decent results without spending karma on melee/unarmed specialization skills. IMO, Distant Storms (katana) and Blood Calls (punch dagger) are the best combination. Note that the better weapons, armors and spells aren't available until you have a few missions under your belt, and the same is true for cyber gear. So, initially just grab a cheap machete and save your cash for a later spending splurge.

[frdnwsm]

Oh, all that stuff is obviously long term goals; for the very start, I'd get both strength and body up to 4, and close combat also if you can. That way, you won't fall over dead the first time someone shoots at you, and you will have a semi decent chance of hitting something.

[e11]

Say, there's one thing I feel the rules don't make very clear: Does Qi casting work with melee weapons, or is that just for unarmed strikes? I've started playing, and I'm going with swords.

[frdnwsm]

Most (but not all) Qi casting works with both swords/axes/clubs, and the so-called unarmed style. Notice that many of them don't affect the weapon at all; they are self buffs to enable you to use your close in skills better. Stride, mystic armor, magic resistance and the like.

Stride is nice because increased movement effectively increases your attack range. The way close combat works, if an enemy is within 1 move of you, you can close in and also make an attack all for 1 AP. So, if you are moving 8 and an enemy is 6 away, you can run up to him, take a swing, and run back into cover for a total cost of 2 AP. Stride increases that movement range.

Killing Hands works only with unarmed weapons (an oxymoron if I ever heard one), not swords, so if you are using mainly swords, you won't be casting it much. You do get a passive bonus just for having it in a spell slot, just like stride. Bonded spell is nice because it combines both Stride and Killling Hands into one spell slot. There's another one that works with unarmed also; I forget the exact name offhand, but it's something like quick strike or instant strike; it gives you one free attack (no AP cost) provided you start adjacent to the target. It's a relatively weak attack, but hey! It's free! I'll have to go back and look up the exact name; it comes in two versions.

Also, I should clarify something. When I say that you can hold off on getting weapon specialty skill ranks (melee and unarmed), that doesn't mean you should never get any. I like to concentrate on getting ranks of close combat and strength up to 7, since those skills determine hit % chance. You can't do damage if you can't hit them. But once I am hitting reliably, I'll grab a couple of ranks of melee skill, (swords are my preferred weapon) which gives you some information like critical hit %, and also increases the chance of getting a critical hit. But that's best done later on in the game.

[DeadlyAlbatross]

I've cleared the game with a melee decker with high Charisma, just because that's how imbalanced cyber is in the game.

Had to ditch ESP control, but then ESPs are next to useless in HK(unless you deck with is0bel),
but on the whole had a very satisfying run with many dialogue options unlocked.
+1 AP cyberware isn't anything to scoff at as well.

But as I look at possible mage or adept build, I for the life of me can't imagine how to build them properly.
Note: I'm specifically trying to build a master of the fist, not of the sword (or axe. I love axe).

Any advice? It looks like too many stats govern successful adepts.

[frdnwsm]

Originally posted by CalibrationHero:

I've cleared the game with a melee decker with high Charisma, just because that's how imbalanced cyber is in the game.

But as I look at possible mage or adept build, I for the life of me can't imagine how to build them properly.
Note: I'm specifically trying to build a master of the fist, not of the sword (or axe. I love axe).

Pure mages are pretty simple. Just get Willpower and spell casting ranks as your main skills, and grab enough Conjuring for a nice Haste. Bring Int up to 4. Add in body and ancillary skills as desired. Buy a combination of attack and buff spells, and you're good to go.

As for close combat, if you just pump up Close Combat and Strength, you can use both sword/axe and fist weapons. No need to restrict yourself to just one style. AP strip something with Distant Storms, then kill it with Blood Calls. You get the best of both. Bring Qi casting up to 7 so you can use Qi Onslaught attack mode.

[DeadlyAlbatross]

That last one sounds like a nasty hybrid, especially if cybered with bonus AP.

But as an unarmed purist, what would one do?

[frdnwsm]

I went back and fired up a saved game. After getting Raymond out of ASSIST, but before heading to the Walled City, I had Strength 8 and Close Combat 8. I had no ... zero, zilch, nada, zip ... ranks in either Melee or Unarmed skill. Str and CC govern close combat hit probability, and apply to both Sword/axe as well as unarmed gear. Specialty skills increase the chance of getting a critical hit as well as access to certain maneuvers. I did eventually get 3 ranks of melee weapon skill just before going to the Walled City.

I can think of no reason to not use both, unless it's some sort of RP thing. "My guy grew up as a street kid and never had access to a swordmaster for training". That sort of thing. Which, btw, is perfectly valid, but it's based on RP, not game mechanics.

To help you plan your skill paths, you should be able to get 190-200 karma by the time you head out to Prosperity Towers, depending on how compulsive you have been about min-maxxing. You get another 10-12 inside the Tower itself.

For my spell using combat adept, the only cyber I got was the jolt alert and the magnetic arm; as I mentioned, mobility is important for a close combat build, so I wanted to be immune to enemy AP-stripping flashbangs.

I'll have to go back and look at some of the upper end cyber again. I also had a seriously cybered up close combat guy, who got 7 ranks of cyber affinity and only had 2 spell slots left at the end, but I don't recall which specific cybergear he got. I think I mentioned that I liked the magical adept better, because he could spread spell buffs around to other members of the team.

[DeadlyAlbatross]

Gee, thanks!

That leaves some space for Charisma and intelligence which open more interesting dialog selections.

I played a cybertroll in Dragonfall, and tried that in HK -- scarily efficient but very boring.